Reading this again I realize, yeah this fighting style just simply is not to your personal taste (which is perfectly fine of course) and as such you may not be the best person to weigh in as you’d want it designed in a way that it inherently cannot be. This isn’t a balanced reliable style, it’s inherently unstable and dangerous to the user and their opponent. You are literally coiling your muscles so tight you could spontaneously explode or blow off a limb while weakened.
Oh also somewhat of note is that it’s not hard to maintain your bar here and if it goes down it’s as simple as charging energy again. At times you honestly want it to go down so you don’t blow yourself up or put yourself in too vulnerable of a state. The core mechanics of this style are meant to be used sparingly at just the right moments with powerful attacks anyways. If you use them all the time with little consequence it just doesn’t thematically differentiate it enough to justify existing at least as a lost fighting style.
ok maybe it could go up to to 1.1x but i think 1.05x is good enough
I don’t think you under stand how high a 1.05x multiplier is and to put it simply this fs would have a damage multplier high as metal.
i was talking about basic combat, it’s stats aren’t a watered down version of this style they are just meant to be average, obivously if you use power piercing and drawback with basic you could mimic this style but basic with speed is like boxing, basic with size is like sailor. it’s not a fair comparison.
yeah I get this I meant more that you had to make your attacks count, because of the innate drawback.
thermo fist is really fun too play with rn, I feel like the community has a stigma around it rn but the balance team did a good job. they made the bar small so you can fill it in 3ish attacks but it only will last for 8ish seconds forcing you to be agressive. this just my personal opinion but the balance team did good work with thermo
I actually do understand, and when I set the multiplier I was operating under an assumption of what the absolute maximum damage multiplier you might see from a lost tier thing would be. I’m just saying having it around 1.05x or 1.1x as you have said now still feels too low given the very nature of the fighting style. It should for sure still hit harder than metal by a fair bit. As for the drawback, you couldn’t justify the damage if it didn’t have so much to begin with so like, that’s fine too. By the way a tempered colossal greatsword has a damage multiplier of 1.3x, an attack size of 1x, and attack speed of 0.75x with no inherent drawback while inflicting bleed and it’s one of the first colossal weapons players can get access to. Perhaps the multiplier I set was too high for how FSs scale, but you can’t really say that until we get up to that level of content getting added.
Fair enough I suppose, I thought you were saying you don’t agree with preferring something unique with a significant gameplay impact and that you don’t like worrying about a bar. I drew the connection simply because Basic Combat is a good baseline to compare things to, and by doing so I was clarifying how little the style would feel like a lost fighting style with your proposed changes.
Honestly I agree that Thermo Fist feels good to play, but like the speed feels so underwhelming for the definitive attack speed base fighting style. I’ve tried Thermo Fist Berserker and honestly I prefer Basic Combat because it’s very close to the same speed but way more reliable in dishing out damage.
ngl this feels like just a thing you would abuse with 30 painite and full powerfull atlantean sophargos with insanity 3 and warding 4 to deal absurd ammounts of damage with limitless health
Well the drawback from painite on top of the drawback from this would get you killed insanely fast given that you could attack maybe 2 or 3 times at full strain before you’re one-tappable (never mind, did the math a little more but close enough). Plus regular drawback doesn’t have a threshold where it stops dealing damage to you unlike strain from this style so generally a bad idea mixing it with the style unless you’re literally trying to play using kamikaze tactics.
If you have 2000 base health and 5000 after all your gear and gems with 50 total drawback when at 100% strain, you’ll still end up at the 20% base health threshold in around 4 or 5 attacks since you’re taking 1000 damage every attack and only have one or two more attacks left in you before you off yourself due to the painite drawback. If the damage potential is too insane I’m certain it’d be nerfed if added to the game, or made even slower and smaller. Best not to try and preemptively balance for something like that without testing. Your damage would for sure be insane, but I mean the opponent could always block, parry, and dodge while you’re busy offing yourself. Not so viable a tactic in PVE either if you’re facing a lot of NPCs like at Fort Castrum or dealing with a boss that has a ton of health. Regeneration may unironically be the best gear stat to pair with this style, or at least it would be if it wasn’t so god awful.
I like the idea of a drawback fighting style and I really like the idea of inflicting a drawback status effect on enemies.
I feel like this is at least a bit overtuned though. I would lower the drawback and damage so the ratio of hits:kills is a little bit closer to an average fighting style (and to make it less feast or famine, and to make it less op in random killing).
Maybe I would also allow for more counterplay by the opponent as an alternative to/with a stat nerf, such as by making you lose a bit of strain if you are hit during endlag.
About the formatting of the suggestion
… first problem I see is adding specific numbers. I do not think anybody can balance something that doesn’t exist. People tend to get really heated over the specific numbers in the suggestion rather than considering the spirit of it, so I would just remove numbers all together. I’ve seen plenty of suggestions where the poor guy gets dogpiled because a number was 0.1 higher than balanced.
For example, instead of putting specific numbers as the stats, you could just use +'s or -'s to communicate the spirit of the suggestion, with each + or - being about 0.05-0.1 (or at least this is what I did in an unfinished suggestion).
Making it clear that a number is an approximation also is good.
This would also remove a lot of the words, which are high effort but not important if they’re about specific numbers imo (not that I don’t appreciate the exceptional writing).
(By the way, you might want to cut down on the paragraph sizes to not scare away people. I suggest hiding things that are not directly about the suggestion and putting edge cases in point form, such as the users death animation. Also having more, smaller paragraphs instead of chunky paragraphs helps.)
Thank you, this is some actually very useful feedback! I would consider lowering the drawback if it’s proven in testing to simply just be too detrimental to the experience but I just love the idea of such an extreme gameplay mechanic and much like the point you made about stats, and I’m para-phrasing here, the spirit of the idea is more important than the specifics. In this case that’s destroying oneself to destroy your opponents. Speaking of which I’d remove the numbers but at this point I’ve already kinda committed to it but I will for sure keep that in made should I make another fighting style suggestion. I’ll just do as you suggested and make it clear they’re approximations.
I don’t know about making it so you lose strain when hit during endlag though as it would likely just feel annoying more than anything for the Muscle Coiling user while not especially benefiting their opponent. I mean the user can just charge that strain right back up and a 100% strain attack instantly resets strain already. A lot of the time a Muscle Coiling user would want their strain to go down anyways so they can stop sacrificing so much health in certain scenarios, such as against an especially evasive opponent.
Anyways yeah thanks for the feedback, especially on the formatting! Though I really don’t see a way I could break up the majority of these paragraphs and struggle to understand what is really an edge case thing here as all the details feel important to me. Kinda feel like if someone can’t be bothered to read a few short paragraphs their feedback wouldn’t matter much anyways, though that does mean this suggestion is read by a smaller audience.
I’ve edited it to be at least a bit easier to read while giving people a fair warning. I’m uncertain what else I could do without losing information but I think this is probably good enough for everyone that isn’t severely illiterate.
Balance Change: Due to multiple people bringing it up I’ve slightly reduced the max damage of Muscle Coiling to 1.275x and 1.375x for imbued. The specific numbers really don’t matter though and we don’t know how strong that’ll be by the point in the game’s development where lost tier things are available but there you go. I won’t reduce the drawback from strain simply because I want it to feel dangerous and difficult yet rewarding to utilize your full power. If in testing it’s truly detrimental to the gameplay then fair enough.
hi someone posted the ancient lightning stats in my dms, it’s actually higher than it gets as far as i know (not saying the stats bc ill get banned)
also ancient lightning is gonna be fucking busted holy shit
idk if it was official or not but it looked like it bc it was the code for it
Assuming what you say is a fact then good to know. Granted there’s no way to confirm it so I’m not going to act like what you said is true. I don’t doubt for a second Vetex has a bias towards lightning magics though.
I guess there’s currently no way to lower your own strain without getting to max. It really depends if you want strain to go up over the course of combat, like thermo, or swing up and down by the will of the user to keep combat dynamic. I think the latter would be a bit more fun, though that might be better realized by a FS exclusive technique suggestion…
Maybe an ability that lets you convert stamina to health and lower strain would be simpler and better (with the downsides of energy cost and movement ofc).
I kind of guess what’s a key idea and what’s an edge case by intuition, but I would say that the core idea is what you immediately interact with and “edge cases” are things that are added to correct problems that you may only notice later.
For example, the core idea of thermo fist is that the more you attack the faster and stronger you get. You also get fire on your fists which is awesome. “edge cases” (probably could’ve chosen a better name) are stuff like increasing your temperature (small nerf) and preheating (specifically it being problematic enough to make bteam nerf it).
Another example: In my “Acrimony” XP Bar suggestion, the amount of XP you need is a core idea which I approximate with a formula that could be changed for balancing. The edge cases are when I mention you can’t stack stat resets with it (obvious, but some people may think otherwise) and that you get less XP if you already have a stat reset (attempt at predicting a potential balance problem).
Maybe, but getting the support of anyone helps. Someone who can’t be bothered to read might seem “lazy” (quite the loaded word), but I think it is possible to invoke a passion in anyone to see what they can do. Just see the average 200+ message argument!
You could also get the suggestor’s dream of a nigh immortal thread full of glazers, which is nice for internet fame and the other suggestor’s dream of it being considered for the game at all.
I’m uncertain of if you fully remember how strain works as after a delay it does rapidly decrease on its own. I might be misunderstanding what you’re getting at. As for an ability that converts stamina to health, that sounds like the gimmick of an entirely different fighting style altogether, and a pretty cool one.
On how you describe edge cases that’s totally fair enough but to be entirely honest I’m too lazy to bother breaking up information like that especially when it requires I put so much more thought into formatting than I already am.
True true true, at the very least I do categorize things conveniently and provide enough information in descriptions and summaries for people to understand the style and come to their conclusions without need to read every tiny detail. I’m just too lazy to try to shorten something already concise enough to the point of struggling to get the idea across.
Also I sincerely doubt any of my ideas are going to get that kind of love unless it’s a quality of life suggestion everyone has been wanting forever since they started playing like the purging artificial difficulty suggestion. New content will always be divisive as you can’t design gameplay content to be ideal for everyone.
mmm yeah I forgot about that. But an ability to hedge against the downsides might still be nice though.
I don’t think you need to sacrifice the idea to communicate it. I think it’s possible to make it brief but also make the details available to people who care about it. It seems impossible, like my teacher’s feedback to my essays when did those, but I think it’s possible with anything. News articles nowadays are full of paragraph breaks.
That’s why I focus on the fun parts instead of mulling over the time it would take to implement (nobody knows that unless they’re moochezz or vetex) or how much it would impact the meta (if it didn’t, it would be a bad idea like current cannon fist).