I wouldnt generalize game devs such a negative way especially considering how difficult game designing can be and how many moving parts can affect ones rank.
But especially I really fail to grasp how a 1v1 system with matchmaking wont bridge the casual and competitive players especially when I already gave the example that it allows bad players to face players of their level. I gave the chess example in which bad players can learn the game against other bad players.
Heck there are games I wouldn’t bother trying nowadays if I did not have matchmaking especially in shooters. And in AO my PvP experience was most of the time looking for someone to fight to then have a very inconsistent experience.
Because they’re big corporations. And being lazy is what makes the most money so that’s what they do. Therefore they can afford to half-ass anything they want. So I will generalize them for that.
The chess example doesn’t work in this case because balancing ranking in a board game is incredibly easier than balancing ranking for a PvP game (especially one that has multiple players). And the system isn’t even worth anything when it comes to learning since some arbitrary point system isn’t a proper measure of skill most of them time you’re either stomping the opponent or you’re getting stomped, and the system just pushes the players onto either one of those sides instead of putting players with similar skill level against each other. You’re example is incredibly uncommon and is what game devs want to think they’re accomplishing when they implement.
And with regards to bridging casual and competitive, I already said that implementing it turns it into an inherently competitive environment that’s unfun for anyone else besides comp players.
Elo is not a unreliable method of measuring skill its a mathematic system that was made originally for chess but its used both for real life sports and esports. Sure it mostly works at its best on 1 v 1 scenarios but its what we are arguing here right now.
But yes I do agree its a lot easier to balance a game like chess in which both players got the same exact weapons.
You do bring some good points but I really still disagree with the idea of making the game more competitive and I think its because the current system is even more competitive which is the renown system. Its not measured by a scoring system but by who gets the biggest number.
I guess that I as an outsider had a frustrating experience getting into PvP being honest with you.
I felt completely outmatched when squashed and when winning I felt wrong like I smashed someone who couldn’t keep up with me.
Nowadays games that have a tidy way of setting fair fights are the ones I can learn and get better at without either feel I cant beat others or that I am almost a bully.
if a player wins, their mmr increases
if they lose, their mmr decreases
eventually their mmr will be at a level where they face players of similar skill, simple enough
this system is fine, i don’t necessarily see any flaws in it
I like matchmaking because it makes me feel that when I am having a match if I win the next opponent will be more of a challenge and if I lose the next match will be a little more fair.
The current system is basically fight with whoever you have around. I did bring my example of chess early on because for most of my life playing chess felt horrible because I felt I play just to lose with no compensation, then why bother playing chess if I can play another thing instead?
Or in this context why try getting good at PvP if I go back to PvE? my problem being that if I thought about this then I am sure there are people out there that also love AO that had the same thought process and gave up on PvP.
Making a 1v1’s mode that isn’t competitive is literally my entire point of why I’m against skill based matchmaking. Because as soon as you’re attempting to alter who people get put against due to some score then it puts everyone who plays it into a competitive mindset by default. And that would be really unhealthy for something PvE Players go to to dip their toes into PvP.
But adding Skill based matchmaking is going to enable the exact problem you describe (worse with AO) and wouldn’t belong in a casual setting
The system is bad for casual players who want to do 1v1’s. Because as soon as you put scores into the equation it turns into a competition that only competitive PvPers want to play, therefore ruining it for casual PvPers. You already see it with renown and nobody wants to engage with it. There’s a reason why people complained about it in Overwatch, COD, whatever (They don’t even use the one in TF2).
If you’re going to put it into some ranked mode then that’s fine I guess but please keep it out of regular 1v1’s
The situation you’re describing only works if it’s done incredibly well and if it isn’t shoehorned into casual and the person actually wants to do it. Imagine if there were Chess players who think that getting put into score-based matchmaking based on whether or not they win or lose was too stressful so they’d be scared of losing said score? Some might say that they shouldn’t care about a meaningless score but you see it in AO a lot where PvE and Players care a lot about their renown and creating a bad environment for most people to learn in, by adding SBM you are basically just doing a repeat of that in a formal setting.
I’d also say that more people would give up on PvP in a situation where scores are involved. I assume PvE Players are still PvE Players at heart whether or not they do PvP so it would be better if 1v1’s was just a thing you can hop into and fight a random person without having to worry about matchmaking, scores, ranks, or whatever. The entire thing about Skill-based matchmaking is that it throws what’s supposed to be casual and turns it into a competition.
There was that one thread/survey where the amount of PvE and PvP Players were calculated among the forums (Granted the Forums don’t speak for every player) and most were PvE Players. So i’d argue not having sbm is a good thing from a PvE Players perspective, and I’m saying this as a PvP Players so there’s no bias.
Summary: I can play completely fine with sbm since I’m a PvP Player but most people are PvE players wanting to try PvP for the first time so forcing a pseudo competitive mode on them is a bad idea. If it doesn’t/barely works in PvP shooter games like Overwatch then it’s definitely not working in a game with a big PvP and PvE divide like AO (Especially one where its creator went on a giant tirade about it too).
yeah it’d prob make it more competitive by default, but doesn’t mean it will only be played by sweats
the entire point of skill based match making is that you face someone of equal skill, whether ur a casual or a sweat, and that’s good for casuals getting into pvp since they won’t get constantly destroyed and discouraged by people way better than them
it’s also good for sweats since they fight someone their own size (or skill level in this case)
it’s a win win
I mean yeah you’ll get put into games where you’ll fight someone with equal skill eventually. But a randomized system is better for that because there isn’t something on the line that influences how they play (In this case the matchmaking score). And from experience most of the time Skill-based matchmaking is implemented it’s so poorly designed that it has the opposite effect and puts them into games they either stomp or have no chance of winning (I fully expect these to come in AO). Then there also sweats who want to play casually sometimes who want to forget about the scoring system.
It’s best not to bother in the first place. A randomized system is better for casuals and avoids the problems that SBM brings.
how would the existence of a score influence how someone plays
you and ur opponent would still want to do good in a 1 v 1 regardless, that’s kinda the whole point of having a 1 v 1
i have the opposite experience actually, besides, this is an unwarranted assumption
I already explained how it would influence how they play. People would be scared of losing score when they lose. Because of this everyone uses meta to win and it turns competitive. We can literally see this from the way renown is implemented. As I said before it’s just going to be that but in a formal setting.
And even then. Scores and all of that are too much to think about in what’s supposed to be casual PvP.
It’s not an unwarranted assumption when you can easily pull up several examples of games with poorly done SBM systems and the negative sentiment around it that’s well documented over the course of multiple years.
Awnsering a few of the things you pointed out we both agree that if such thing where to be implemented it should not be forced into anyone not even psychologically which is the concern you point out.
Also I do agree that if it were to be implemented poorly it would be awful that was what we went on earlier that many game devs fail to implement a good system and ends being a bad experience for everyone.
My only concern was that I always had a hard time playing against others in AO and others probably found the current system to be inconvenient.
But I will be 100% honest.
Its saturday morning.
And I really feel exhausted seeing all the arguments I see before me since I left.
I did enjoy our exchange of ideas we both have different perspectives on how the game should be handled letting casual play stay casual and competitive be healthy.
We certainly have different perspectives on how it could be handled and while I still believe in the scoring system you did bring some good points.
Actually I do feel like asking one last thing on your perspective at least:
How would you bridge the gap to allow PvE players to try PvP while making it easier than the current system of having to find people in Samira?
I did hear a lot on why the 1v1 arena could not work but I would like to hear if you think there is a better alternative or if you still have faith in the current system.
I honestly don’t know since Vetex denounces toxic PvPers yet insists on having a system completely enabling them. If anything I’d want to just split the leaderboard into two. 1 for PvP and 1 for PvE, the idea is still a work in progress.
Yeah I don’t think the current system is working at all if this many people are complaining about it. I personally think the game has fundamental flaws regarding that but that’s just me.
You hit the head of the nail there. I really feel the whole way PvP is currently handled really encourages toxic behaviour.
Nothing is done to mitigate this sure but at the same time its very difficult to do radical changes to the rules of a game and suspect no consequences of backlash.
Surely the current system I think its so detrimental to the games health another person from the PvP community will say its perfect. That is mostly why Vetex takes that action of complaining about it and not changing it so to not kick what he knows is still a part of his playerbase.
I agree with both things that you said in which I would split the casual and competitive sides of AO and that the game has a lot of flaws in its game design. And true its hard to think on what would be the best way of improving it.