As i said in a previous reply, it seems like the hp increase is there to give you a higher… let’s call it resource pool, for your spirit weapons. Spirit weapons again, according to the trello, are meant to drain your lifeforce to deal damage to an enemy. If they drained health to use, and didn’t increase your hp with vit, they would either need to do absurd damage, or have absurd utility to see any sort of competitive advantage to using them. The hp increase is similar in concept to the energy increase investing points in the other three stats gives you.
Vitality in general has just been approached terribly from a design standpoint in this game, it’s a stat that takes away from your build instead of adding to it. You lose tiers, you lose damage, you lose stats that could reach ability thresholds if invested elsewhere, and currently you even lose energy, in exchange for gaining HP (not even an HP regen boost if these changes go through). Just inherently very poorly designed, every stat should bolster your build, not subtract from it
The increase in hp itself isn’t very well thought out because it’s counterintuitive to go a tank build with vitality. You’d get a greater hp increase ratio wise for going a glass cannon vitality build than a tank one because vit gives flat hp. If vit is supposed to be this “resource pool” to use your weapon, then does defense from armor not literally do the same but much more? You’d get triple the hp from armor than vit would give and about the same as what vit would give just by leveling up.
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Never once in the patreon discoed chat have i heard a tester talk about a previous vitality meta when I’ve complained about vitality before, all i’ve heard from them was theoretical bull like “well if vitality wasn’t reduced damage you’d just ge stat checked by vitality builds”, if there was a time when vitality was the meta, clearly it was before things like shapes were added, because those boosted mono-stat build viability by a lot. It may have been before the mono-stat builds were “finished” for the current level, resulting in less of a opportunity cost difference when investing in vitality, so testers felt it needed to be at least temporarily nerfed.
It doesn’t need that anymore, there’s a very good reason vitality builds are at the bottom of everyone’s tier list
Obviously it’s all just inference rn but I’d be willing to wager that Spirit Weapon HP drain is gunna be percentage based rather than flat, so that you don’t have to build full tank in order to get the most of these weapons
then again, I could see that being abused pretty heavily as it’d just make glass cannon vit builds more effective with spirit weapons than tanky vit builds with spirit weapons which just doesn’t make sense
I think that the best solution would be the self-drain being percentage based, with the strength of Spirit Weapons attacks scaling depending on how much health was lost from the drain. solves the potential problem of glass cannon vit builds getting more out of their spirit weapons and makes it so that you don’t have to build full tank to use them
Sorry for replying late as well, I was away.
The discussion on this continued for quite the long time while you were gone.
I made some discoveries and realizations in that time.
The primary problem with DoT’s right now, which is responsible for the change to the formula even being suggested (which affects all classes, not just magic), is very strong magics with very strong DoT’s.
These are:
Acid (Same story as magma but slightly (-0.05 base damage multiplier) weaker, smaller size, and better magic speed.)
Metal (Total multiplier nearing 1.3x when bleed procs, which is always. Easy fixes would include making its bleed threshold high, nerfing its bleed, or removing its bleed.)
And, to a lesser extent, earth. (Bleed threshold is a lot more fair here)
Next would be that the new formula makes a lot of mechanics/spells entirely irrelevant if you’re using an intensity build or poison magic.
This includes any charged spell, ultimate move, synergy (as they would only affect impact damage), spell stronger than a blast (in an ideal meta the blast is not the standard strong attack, it should be the standard average damage attack), or difficult to land spell.
This means poison is now all about finding the largest, hardest to avoid attack and then spamming it while running away. You don’t need a further game plan or to be fun to play against.
My bleed and plasma synergies being entirely pointless is really disparaging.
Oh and blocking also becomes entirely pointless against intensity builds, as damage of the hit, is, again, irrelevant.
This big ol chunk of text is entirely for mages, I don’t even know how it would affect weapons or strength builds. If it’s already a nerf for pure magic I can’t imagine it being a buff for the other things that use damaging status’.
Oh and as an aside, look into how crystal interacts with ultimate moves. Apparently ultimate moves apply stackable status’ twice per hit, which can make crystal (0.975 damage multi) apply it’s crystal shatter damage bonus multiple times for humongous bonus damage in a massive area.
Going to post this so I can get involved in the current discussion about vit without forgetting.
I think the biggest problem with vitality from a development standpoint is that in the grand scheme of things it just seems to exist for the sake of having more options.
Nothing vitality has been said to be able to do cannot be replicated by already existing stat builds or gear.
Vitality weapons are just forced drawback builds on conjuror.
You can already increase your health with armor.
Vit is better off being canned so long as it remains vitality and isn’t reworked into something else entirely.
Vitality weapons could just be an interesting new category of weapons to play around with, not a whole fourth category of stat builds.
There really isn’t much in terms of further development the stat can get to make it unique without stealing ideas for what would be critical defensive options, and removing it would overall improve the ease of balancing the game.
The only world in which I can see keeping vitality as the best solution is a world where it’s just reworked into something different entirely, like a summoner/occult thing like many people keep suggesting.
Make it all about ghosts, souls, and disjointed attacks that don’t come from the user.
Otherwise what’s the gameplay difference between them and a conjuror with drawback?
Especially if you run paladin…
They have more health but deal less damage? Couldn’t I already do that by investing into high defense armor and accessories?
I think this is an unfair assumption, just from the way Spirit Weapons have been discussed. These aren’t just going to be Weapons that take your HP when you use them. They seem to be functionally distinct from the options Weapons users have, and I hope Vetex does follow through and develops them in a way that provides a unique user experience.
I don’t really feel as if this is the truth, personally. Vitality is underdeveloped beyond any shadow of a doubt, but I feel like the stat has even more potential than what Spirit Weapons can bring to the table. The claim that Vitality is ‘filler’ isn’t exactly fair, though I guess I can see where you’re coming from. Every stat is based off of a playstyle: Tank, Zoner, Rushdown, and Mix-Up. There are plenty of other fun and unique options that could be added to Vitality builds down the line that reinforce their roles as Tanks in the game, though I don’t expect to see them anytime soon.
I’ve personally always envisioned Vitality builds as the ones ‘leading the charge’, so to speak. I played a lot of WoW when I was younger and the first that comes to my mind when I consider the power fantasy of a class like Paladin in AO is that stalwart warrior who uses their health and unique abilities to force the attention of opponents unto themselves, but are more team-reliant than most other builds due to their lower damage output. I think this can definitely be reached in time: hopefully Spirit Weapons stick the landing and end up being fun and unique, and the Stat only has more room to grow from there.
Dont they get leap from their magic already?
Forgor to reply to this but I think the only reason str skills are 30 higher than magic is vet hasn’t made ultimate art crash yet
warlock does , juggernaut does not have magic , nor does warlord
aint ultimate art crash in the game ? stg it was in that first trailer , I wouldn’t know tho I don’t play berserker at all
can’t spell warden without the W
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Me watching Vitality get gutted further:
(Ok but seriously even though I never planned on touching vitality but seriously… at this point it might as well be removed… or at the very least completely overhauled and rebooted)
Bumping this again for any testers skimming the thread. Would very much appreciate some insight into the thought process of removing HP regen scaling entirely.
A passive buff on Vitality that would be cool is if you got HP regen and faster energy regen upon charging your aura. I feel I feel like Vitality should also be reworked and have name changed to Spirit instead, because it probably makes more sense and better defines the class.
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Spirit would honestly be a sick name for the stat I won’t lie
Honestly that’s a neat feature… but I will say quite powerful so I’m this case the lowered damage… along with spirit weapons harming the use would make more sense
Major Doc Change List #1:
Big discussions happened and a bunch more changes have happened.
This has been changed to only in combat, as it would be tedious to get max health outside of it. Generally, it seems we want to keep HP high, but have regen play less of a key role in combat. This may change heavily though as more discussions can happen.
Hunger drain from bottles is very frustrating to deal with. Reducing it should make it more bearable to use Sailor Style, as it puts less emphasis on managing hunger.
Removed as it’s not necessary to remove the option anymore.
Additional Explosion damage nerfs to make up for its high strengths.
Aura and Focus will be having a shorter duration to make it feel more of a trade off, then a free stat boost increase. Please understand that it should not be something you pop at the beginning and last the entire fight.
Pulsars size has been changed from -50% → 30% to keep its size still generously big. However, it will have even more startup and a higher cooldown.
This was removed as it was felt that other enchants are relatively equal to strong/defense. Nerfing it would make strong/defense more dominant again.
Secondary stat amulets have gotten a bigger buff to match enchants still. This will give more purpose to them then only picking Power/Defense ones.
Feels too lacking and underwhelming. It’s projectile speed being increased should put it more similar to other options, without being too overpowered.
Increased by 1s (used to be 6s.) Clashing lingering attacks are generally pretty good and we don’t want to over-nerf Tempest.
Honestly, yeah…
These have been removed due to overcomplications. I don’t think vetex is willing to rework many skills, so it’s better to leave it as is.
These changes overall are to make it feel much more interesting to use M1s as they require too much of a skill floor.
Multi Shot rework has been removed… Sorry Perf.
Multi Shot should still remain a situational niche, but excel at it a bit more. Rapid Fire would just have slightly more things to go off of. Piercing Shot after the compensation would still remain similar, but due to it being hitscan, it’s forced to have a smaller AoE.
Removed as this incentivizes passive play
Until we get a better idea of how blocking/parrying should be, these changes are gone.
This just doesn’t require you to imbue for spells to fill heat.
Some experimental ideas have been removed and saved until later down the road.
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Nice