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atk speed has gotten a lot of nerf and the bteam doesnt seem to want to buff atk speed, however i think atk speed deserve an startup and endlag buff, first i wanna start with why atk speed needs an endlag buff
i will be looking at 200, 300 and 400 atk speed, balance team argues that atk speed will make u hard to be punish or impossible, however the endlag reduction is barely reduced
200 atk speed and endlag
- 200 atk speed endlag reduction is 6.05%
0.2s=>0.188s
0.45s=>0.423s
0.5s=>0.470s
0.7s=>0.658s
0.81s=>0.761s
1s=>0.939s
1.5s=>1.409s
300 atk speed and endlag
- 300 atk speed endlag reduction is 8.64%
0.2s=>0.183s
0.45s=>0.411s
0.5s=>0.457s
0.7s=>0.640s
0.81s=>0.740s
1s=>0.914s
1.5s=>1.370s
400 atk speed and endlag
- 400 atk speed endlag reduction 11.06%
0.2s=>0.178s
0.45s=>0.400s
0.5s=>0.445s
0.7s=>0.623s
0.81s=>0.720s
1s=>0.889s
1.5s=>1.334s
while i didnt do for 100 atk speed, 100 endlag reduction is 3.24%, back to the main point, the endlag reduction isnt that significant, people can still endlag punish you and a buff to reduce endlag more wouldnt create unpunishable endlags, i think 400 atk speed should at least give 20% endlag reduction (this is ~190 less endlag for atks that are under 1s and ~200 less endlag for atks that are 1s+, fun fact: u need 850 atk speed for a 20% reduction)
now for startup
200 atk speed and startup
- 200 atk speed startup reduction is 24.22%
0.3s=>0.227s
0.33s=>0.250s
0.35s=>0.265s
0.4s=>0.303s
0.45s=>0.341s
0.55s=>0.417s
0.7s=>0.530s
0.81s=>0.614s
1s=>0.758s
300 atk speed and startup
- 300 atk speed startup rediction is 34.56%
0.3s=>0.196s
0.33s=>0.216s
0.35s=>0.229s
0.4s=>0.262s
0.45s=>0.294s
0.55s=>0.360s
0.7s=>0.458s
0.81s=>0.530s
1s=>0.654s
400 atk speed and startup
- 400 atk speed reduction is 44.25%
0.3s=>0.167s
0.33s=>0.184s
0.35s=>0.195s
0.4s=>0.223s
0.45s=>0.251s
0.55s=>0.307
0.7s=>0.390s
0.81s=>0.452s
1s=>0.558s
startup difference at 200 and 300 once again doesnt make it impossible to react, and the point isnt that atk speed shouldn’t make it impossible to react, but a difference that u can notice at high investments, i think that 300 shouldnt make a visible difference (as in u dont need external stuff to see it), 400 almost has it at 50%, only 5.75% away, so i think its safe to say that its a visible difference, but here is another issue
the more u have in 1 substat, the harder it is to have 2 substats or power or defense, here are some examples (200 atk speed allows u to have a good build so i will focus on 300 and 400)
examples of builds with 300 atk speed
(the size is 18% more, u could sacrifice a bit of power and replace an powerful with explosive for 23% more size)
for 400 atk speed i only found this one
i think the problem is clear, for the amount of substats u need to sacrifice to keep power or power (or defense i guess) to have some substats for the amount of startup and endlag u get isnt rewarding, i showed a build with no substats and 300 atk speed, while a bit of armor and no substats, while the power is 115 is 75% more power, perchance says that non-weapon are mostly standardized, however i think if there is any problem, it should be the power, people seem to have a lot of power in general so that might be a bit above the average, i also put insanity on soph, and while i got 628 defense, i lost power, i think atk speed at 400 should alteast have 60%, mostly bc u literally sacrifice all substats and some power to atk very fast, we also need to remember that it scales with lvl, so a lvl 1 at 400 atk speed will have more startup and endlag reduction than a max lvl
now to calculate the projectile speed, u multiply all atk speed, for atk speed %, lets say 23%, u convert it to 0.23 then u add 1, so 1.23, and you have a weapon that has 1.1 atk speed affinity, what do u do is 1.23x1.1, now i think proj also have a speed affinity, but i already dmed meta 30 times so i will assume is 1, so 1.23x1.1x1 which results in 1.353, now to get it as a %, we subtract 1 which results in 0.353 or 35% faster, im unsure where the third number go, but prob it turns into ,3 so 35.3%, honestly i find this mostly fair, i dont think it need a big buff but i wont be surprise if it would need to recieve a small one
now i wanna look into what weapons are usually used and the difference in speed and size in pvp
lets be honest, if ur gonna use ardent or atk speed as ur main stat, ur prob gonna run stuff that already have a high atk speed, stuff like daggers, noble thunderstorm, rapiers, stafs, scimitar of storms, i would argue that most of them use projectiles, which req aim and/or prediction to hit, only other moves that have an AoE that can be used are shining cycle, sparrow thrust and whirlwind, im not sure if i should include triasta or katana tp in it, but the point is that these stuff, unless u go for atk size as well, dont have a big AoE (maybe expect sparrow), most stuff req aim to make the most of it and the more skill someone has, the more advantage u can take of atk speed
so for the difference between size and speed
- atk size
atks that scale well with size and their startup and endlag
- startup with 200 atk speed, endlag will be noted after atk name, 300 atk speed will be shown in { }
0.25s=>0.189s
{0.25=>0.164s}
- rain of arrows 0.45s=>0.423s {0.45s=>0.411s}
- storm of arrows 0.75s=>0.705s {0.75s=>0.685s}
0.33s=>0.250s
{0.33s=>0.216s}
- shinning cycle (its 0.35s but its barely noticeable, 0.265) 0.3s=>0.282s {0.3s=>0.274s}
- devestate 1.25s=>1.174s {1.25s=>1.142s}
- crushing juggernut 1s=>0.939s {1s=>0.914s}
0.4s=>0.303s
{0.4s=>0.262s}
- rising tides 0.1s=>0.094s {0.1s=>0.091s}
- flying pheonix 0.7s=>0.658s {0.7s=>0.640s}
- flying slash 0.6s=>0.564s {0.6s=>0.548s}
0.8s=>0.606s
{0.8s=>0.523s}
- tempest 1s=>0.939s {1s=>0.914s}
- raging impact (its 0.81 but again its barely noticeable) 0.81s=>0.761 {0.81s=>0.740s}
size plays differently and have different interest, yet just like speed, the better u are, the more advantage u can take of it, the endlag of someoen running 0 atk speed isnt that different than someone running 200 or 300, you need to fight someone that runs 400 to have ~100 faster cd than you on the faster endlags (which ofc ends up being a bigger difference on slower endlags, like 0.8s) but at that point ur sacrifising power or defense for it, also u could easily argue that 200 or even 300 is better than 400, now i can see 200 and 300 making some form of difference on stuff like tempest or ranging impact, same for some situation, but it isnt a constant advantage you have, atk size focus on size, the atks should make u parry or atleast to block and they could easily endlag punish u or punish u after a grab, they also have to wait for the moment where they can attack you
another important observation is how there is barely a difference in endlag, i would argue it isnt enough to endlag punish them, maybe in some situations where u expect them or bait them to do a specific attack, but they also have to make sure they dont get themself in that situation, ur not fighting against something but someone that also wants to win, so reactively, no, i dont think u can (or at best consistently if that the worse) reactivily punish them, unless u dont try to block/parry
- atk speed
ofc atk speed will be more focus on projectile, to make most of it, u need to predict and react, i would say atk size is more of a passive one, as even if someone comes close to you, u still can dmg them easily due to having more AoE options, while atk speed might have only 1 or 2, most likely whirlwind and/or shining cycle, which have a much smaller range than tempest or crushing jugg, grabs are a thing but so do size user have them, i dont think its fair to say that atk speeders can use grabs like sizes cant, i would say size benefit more from it since u could use one that launches someone not far away, while speed users need to aim after them
u also need to be careful to not get endlag punished, since endlag reduction barely does reduce ur endlag, in this case u also need to be careful like size users, which i dont think it should be as a big concern if ur far away, the treat should still be there but not as present if ur far, while u need to be careful how close u are to a size user and ur placement, u should be predicting the atks of a speed user and be active as to not be predictable on where u will fall (ex, spamming attacks, not only they lock u in place but also stop u in air, which should make it easy for an atk user to predict u and capitalize on it), however speed barely decreases startup and endlag unless u are willing to sacrifice ur other substats and some power or defense
both atk size and speed play seperatly, this is something that i dont think the bteam takes into account when talking with other people, but atk size is atk sizing, while speed is struggling, i think speed deserve buff, u guys merged with vetcord and that should give u guys access to more opinions and views and feedback, but i havent seen any balance topic