Change to Lost knowledge drawback

Change to Lost knowledge drawback
effort 4.5 2 quality 4.5 2 reasonability 4.5 2

The issue

In the recent balancing patch, lost knowledge got a heavy nerf in the form of using twice the usual amount of energy on top of having much longer cooldown. Coupling with previous nerfs to the actual effect they have, lost knowledge has been greatly weakened since Full release. This was done primarily to punish people who completely layer their entire moveset in lost knowledge, receiving large stat buffs in exchange for completing a lost chart.
However, this opens up an entirely new problem. Lost knowledge has been made nearly worthless due to these changes, and relatively new players who haven’t had the chance to perfect their builds are far more likely to be turned away from using it after they realize how heavily their moves are being nerfed. They’ll likely feel unrewarded for the time and effort spent in reaching charting level 10, getting and actually completing a lost treasure chart.
Overall, the change likely did achieve its goal, at least somewhat, in making people use lost knowledge in their builds less, but it also took colateral victims in form of everyone who used few for their niche uses, or generally didn’t bother perfecting their build for PvP. This suggestion aims to change that in one of two ways.

Change 1

A very simple and very straightforward change: limit the maximum amount of lost knowledge the player can have on a means of combat via a stat point requirement.

  • Magics and fighting styles would have a set upper limit as well as a stat point thresholds for each lost knowledge book to be applied.
    For example, 1st magic would have an upper limit of 3 lost knowledge spells, one being unlocked every 100 points in magic. 2nd magics would have the requirement raised by 100 points or so, needing 200 points for the first lost knowledge book to be used.
  • Weapons and relics would have a set upper limit with stat point thresholds just like magics and fighting styles, but would have another limitation. Skill and rite notes that had lost knowledge applies to them cannot be put on weapons that don’t have a free spot, either due to the threshold being reached, or the user having insufficient stat points.

This would be a rather simple change that’d both prevent overusage of lost knowledge as well as hybrids and especially savants having far more lost knowledge moves than wanted.

Change 2

A more sophisticated and risky change that would in turn force the players to seek new strategies: drawback adds up with each new lost knowledge book and is shared universally across all moves with lost knowledge. This would call for a great reduction in current lost knowledge drawbacks, but would force the players to consider how much lost knowledge they actually need.

  • Current cooldown extension is lowered to ~1 second[1] and energy consumption increase to ~1.25[2]. This drawback adds up for all lost knowledge move.
    Basically, with just 1 lost knowledge move, the player would get 1 second longer cooldown and use up 1.25x more energy on that move. By adding another lost knowledge to a move of theirs, however, both of those moves would take 2 seconds longer to get off cooldown, and consume 1.5x more energy. Thus, if the player coats both their magics or fighting styles, for example, in lost knowledge, they’ll be facing 16 seconds longer cooldown and an 8x greater energy consumption across all their moves.

The result would be players actually having to think about what moves they want to put lost knowledge on and control how many they have, lest the lost knowledge they spent so long to get becomes more of a hinderance than a reward.

@Meta please consider.


  1. Maybe? ↩︎

  2. Maybe? ↩︎

1 Like

I think 8x is a bit far even for coating your magic/fighting styles with lost knowledge, because then it’s like 1 move and you can’t fight anymore. I’d appreciate if the multiplier was added by increments of .25x, though the cooldown in seconds is entirely reasonable.

On the suggestion itself, I believe it is a great suggestion, it removes some of the things that made lost knowledge almost unusable without extremely unwarranted side-effects, and makes it more practical to use in general considering it’s not an overwhelming stat buff (Dragon slaying’s 1.1x damage and 1.15x size is nice, but when you see the absolutely absured 0.65x dexterity and 0.8x range, for one, how are you even gonna reach that dragon at that point, and two, you ALSO have to deal with 1.5x the cooldown (+3 seconds) and 2x the energy cost.)

(At this point on I’m going a bit off topic, this is my opinion on lost knowledge in general as it stands)

I get that lost knowledge is good, but the drawbacks are horrible, and the stat buffs themselves got nerfed, I believe. If this isn’t added, Lost Knowledge is going to actually be the term “Lost” by the community. I know dragon slaying was the “meta” for a bit, but 0.65x dexterity and 0.8x range is kinda harsh for 1.1x damage and 1.15x size. Instead of gutting everything good, make the things that aren’t a little better. For example, Beast conquering is not very good at all, kind of getting outclassed by darkness purging (which actually is the only lost knowledge with 0 stat drawbacks.) It’s special effect also isn’t that great, as you probably have to kill the sea monster with that specific spell or skill note, which in a weapon user’s case (ESPECIALLY a warlord) would be double impractical considering… well… a kraken and a sword don’t mix well unless you’re running one of those max range builds, even then you’re getting ganked by the tentacles)

That’s all for my little reply (And partially grievances of the shenanigans surrounding lost knowledge,) if you’re reading this, thanks for reading.

TLDR: Lost Knowledge in it’s current state sucks, dragon slaying doesn’t make sense (Considering they’re flying and you get less range…?) Vetex devs needa look at this suggestion with more than a grain of salt as well.

yeah.

does anyone know if this is applied before or after the already high energy ults take?

Not sure what you mean here, because that is the case. Each new move adds 0.25x more energy required for all moves. It only becomes 8x if you go so far that there isn’t a single move you use that doesn’t have lost knowledge. That’s the issue the bteam is fighting in the first place, people putting lost knowledge on near every move in their arsenal.
Anyways, it’s also a heavy miscalculation on my part, it’d just be 5x the energy usage, but you get the point. It’s meant to be a harsh punishment for people who carelessly put lost knowledge on their moves just to get a bigger damage bonus. This limit would force them to stop and think how many moves can they handle with increased energy

Frankly, lost knowledges need nothing short of a full rework in their effects at this point.
They are fundamentally useless outside of spirit/weapon builds and not very useful on those either.

Each one, on a magic or fighting style, makes it so you have an attack permenantly slapped into your moveset that holds literally zero value outside of extremely specific situations.
Even dragon slaying is garbage at this point (and frankly it always was), a 10% damage boost for 2x cooldowns and 2x energy costs.

I understand not wanting them to change the game in a major way, but at this point why even add them if they’re going to do nothing but actively make your kit worse.
Unless something changes in a major way before the update, I’m going to have to delete my annihilation and remake it because it has dragon slaying on it. For the dragon update.

Of course it would be preferable to see LK become useful, but I think we have to stop it from becoming even more useless first. No point if the bteam decides to make it give +100% of a stat if the nerf is that it permanently deletes that move and slot from the means of combat you used it on.

honestly yeah, i think a change having people abusing losts have a greater debuff is waaaay better than ruining it for everyone lol
also not to mention isnt that how every other condition in the game works? more drawback is more health lost along with blood diseases doing the same thing with higher amounts

i think it would be better to just make every applied lost knowledge increase the drawback of every lost knowledge skill on the magic/weapon/etc

So, if I’m getting this right, you’d make it universal for a single means of combat, right? For a +1 second, +25% energy consumption model, first magic with 4 lost knowledge spells would have said spells’ cooldowns increased by 4 seconds and energy consumption by 100%, and second magic with 2 lk spells would have it only increased by 2 seconds and 50%, right?
In such a case, the drawbacks would probably have to be harsher.

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