Community Feedback on Balancing

I’ve seen a lot of mixed opinions on the forum regarding balancing and the balance team, so this thread serves for me to gain meaningful insight into how the community feels about the balance process and its team in general.

Are you in the AO Public Balancing Server (before voting on this poll)?

  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

Are you aware that there is a balance team for the game (before seeing this post)?

  • Yes
  • Yes, but I am unfamiliar with who exactly is on the balance team
  • No
0 voters

Are you familiar with how the balance team operates? Do you know our general process of proposing balance changes?

  • Yes, I’m quite familiar with how they work out balance changes
  • Maybe
  • No
0 voters

How much of an impact do you believe the community has when it comes to feedback on proposed balance changes (ones that the balance team has already put on the Balance Trello)? The #trello-feedback, #public-balance-topics, and #polls channels in the Public Balance Server serves for getting meaningful community feedback on proposed changes.

  • Very high impact
  • High impact
  • Medium impact
  • Little impact
  • Very little impact
0 voters

How often do you believe community-suggested balance changes and feedback are seen and acknowledged by the balance team? The suggestions channels in the Public Balance Server and #balance-discussion channels serve as outlets for the community to suggest and discuss their own proposals.

  • Very often
  • Often
  • On occasion
  • Rarely
  • Almost never
0 voters

What is your main source of information regarding balance changes?

  • Official AO Trello
  • AO Balance Trello
  • AO Public Balance Server (#:pushpin:balance-trello-updates)
  • Vetex’s Games Server
  • AO Forum
  • Miscellaneous (e.g. friends from other communities/servers)
0 voters

On the Balance Trello, the balance team provides detailed explanations for almost every balance change to give context as to why they are being done. Generally, how do you tend to perceive our reasoning for each balance change? Are they coherent and sufficient?

  • Reasoning tends to be sufficient and understandable
  • Reasoning tends to be complicated or overly detailed, making it difficult to understand some balance changes
  • Reasoning tends to be insufficient or weak, making balance changes seem unjustified
  • I often see balance changes without reasoning given for them, making me have to assume why some changes are done
0 voters

Generally, do you get clarity for knowing why some balance changes are done if you are unsure why they were done?

  • Yes, after reading the reasoning written by the balance team for the changes themselves
  • Yes, with the help of someone else (who could be a balance team member or not) to interpret the reasoning that the balance team provided
  • No; I only may understand why after they are already implemented into the game
0 voters

All things considered, how well do you think the balance team is doing in balancing the game so far (10 for excellent, 1 for extremely poor)?

Balance Team Rating
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 10
0 voters

Open-ended questions:

  • What does the balance team do wrong in your opinion? What are our weak areas?
    • What is the balance team’s biggest flaw in your opinion? What would you suggest we do to address this flaw?
  • What does the balance team do right in your opinon? What are our strong points?
    • What is the thing you appreciate about the balance team the most that you can’t really say about the balance team of any other games you know of?
  • Have you discussed something balance-related with a balance team member before? If so, please share your thoughts on your interactions with the member (don’t need to share their name; just describe the interaction) and whether your balance concerns were addressed.

Please remember to stay on topic and be civil; balance is often a controversial subject, and I’ve seen numerous balance-related discussions devolve into strawman arguments, so please be mindful of this pitfall.

when was the last time this happened someone remind me

when people rage about a change ask how they can improve it instead of just ignoring them

1 Like

yea i have disccused stuff with balance team members before the new roadmap :cold_face:

i talk to myself in the mirror

4 Likes

I’ve seen it thrown around these 'ere forums that bteam makes changes based on the smaller pvp community rather than making changes based on a balance between the wishes of the pvp player and general player/what the game is meant to be (i.e. a story driven rpg / (or something like that, this is kind of my interpretation from content i’ve more so just absorbed during my time here)

1 Like

Figure I’ll try to throw my two cents in here.

Generally, I think the balance team can sometimes overstep in attempts to correct glaring issues. Cone checks for moves like crash and rushdown, now the new hottest topic (exhaustion). Some changes can seem a bit… overcomplicated.

Though I think the solutions themselves are sound, they can overcomplicate certain facets of the game. Ao is already REALLY hard to learn from a fresh perspective, so I am always going to be very critical of systems like those, ones that make it that much harder to try and get into the games pvp scene.

However, if I had really lay into B-Team, the biggest weakness you all have is that you seem to seldom take the skill floor of AO into consideration when making changes. I can’t gauge the average skill level of the balance team members, but I can take a safe bet that most members are well versed in pvp.

Introducing new mechanics or changing stat formulas up frequently can make it really hard for new players to try and grasp PVP, as well as people who play the game infrequently finding the feel of their build to be quite different than they last remember. Of course, that’s just an unavoidable fact of balancing sometimes, but I do think, if the team had a big flaw, it’s that lower skill play & the skill floor are often overlooked in favor of the mid-high tier combat balance.


I got about as many positive things to say about the balance team. I don’t like drowning a post in negativity, so, on one end I will say that most of the people I have talked to on the balance team are some of the more mature and well-mannered members of the community. Very quickly discussions for balance can devolve into mud-slinging and personal insults, which is part of the reason I can’t be asked to return to the public balance discord. Luckily, no balance team member I’ve talked to has personally attacked my intelligence just for having a different view on a change than they do. (I really hope this post doesn’t age like milk)

I have also seen a push, especially lately, to try and make more pve friendly changes. I used to be worried that the balance team was made up by people who only played AO for the competitive side, but seeing small changes like trying to push for strength being standardized to magic, or increased climb speed, it’s all wonderful. Trying to give back to an area of the game that can sometimes be caught in the crossfire of your changes is very nice.

I just hope you all continue to think about players like me, who aren’t super invested into the pvp side of the game, when you make changes.

Well, you know me. I’ve talked to many balance team members before. Pilles, you, Dredge (pristine here on the forums), etc. In fact- it was Pristine who calmed me down when I was pretty up and arms about the cone check change. I used crash to travel between the spires on redwake and to decrease the climbing time for the stepstones, I was angry to see that aspect of it removed. However, pristine made me see reason in that regard.

Pilles and I talk semi-frequently in the patreon discord chat as well, and they’ve been a huge help in explaining perspectives on certain changes I hadn’t considered before. I don’t always agree, but it’s nice to have a dialogue with someone that doesn’t boil down to arguing.

5 Likes

Overcomplicating mechanics for the sake of balance (proposed agility rework) or making them impossible to know unless you read the trello or some discord doc (gear stat and tier efficiencies on moves)

2 Likes

Definitely only/mainly taking opinions from the balancecord.

Of course a huge echo chamber of pvpers isn’t going to have the best interests of the community in mind, because they are focused on PvP. Polling about balance changes that impact things elsewhere, such as the vetcord or forums could help solve this issue.

The balance team is clearly trying very hard to balance the game, despite the seemingly malicious take many have on them. The problem arises when they basically can’t take into account non pvpers opinions, because all the opinions they get come from seasoned pvpers.

They seemed to have an idea they were THE source of correct information, simply dismissing others ideas and opinions. And coming up with numerous explanations for why this would actually benefit the community despite the large backlash they were getting from everyone else involved.

The best term I could use to describe them would be “stuck up”, although I can see why that would happen when you are put in a position of responsibility and power like a balance team

Hi! Balance team member here!

This is a fantastic suggestion, but unfortunately, as of now, we basically can’t. While we would technically be able to poll balance changes on the forum, it’s still a significantly smaller platform compared to the public balance server, or vetcord.

As for polling changes in vetcord, this would honestly be ideal. The problem with that is that the balance team still isn’t exactly “official” (in quotes since it is, but there isnt any sort of roles/channels/extra permissions for the actual balance team IN vetcord) so the next best place is really the public balance server.

While its true that many of the members of the balance team ARE seasoned PVPers, many are also pretty experienced PVErs, as well. I personally have ~800 of just pve alone (~200 hours dark sea, 200 hours npc killing, 400 hours other PVE stuff such as charts, diving spots, sealed chest grinding).

When it comes to PVE related changes, generally there isnt as much to do vs PVP related changes. Mainly, because NPCs are pretty standard when it comes to balancing, and most of the other PVE activities are pretty much balanced by testers (I assume). I do have a feeling there might be some more PVE related changes in the future tho, with NPC supercharging likely being a target (if I were to guess based off sneaks).

Can’t really deny that. It is pretty unfortunate that some of the members aren’t exactly the most professional, and I hope it can change in the future. Sorry your experience with some members have been that way!

Agreed, since the public balance server is pretty much our main source of community feedback/interactions. There is a decent amount of PVE related suggestions that are made in the public balance server, but most either are too impractical for Vetex to add, or simply can’t be added due to time constraints, as well as issues with possible confliction with other aspects of the game.

On the bright side, a suggestion related to reducing golden fish’s rarity was posted in the public balance server, voted on in the private balance server, and subsequently added to the Balance Trello under the TU balance changes (which is actually private to testers only, grabbed the screenshot from the trello updates channel in the public server)
image

Hope this helps with some questions!

2 Likes

I’m not saying they aren’t, but pve focused things don’t have the same ripple affect as PvP focused things, since it usually involved changes to ai or things not related to combat whatsoever. If you are thinking of things from a pve perspective, it usually doesn’t affect PvP, but if you think of things from a PvP perspective, it almost always affects pve

1 Like

This is true. While most/all of the PVP changes do affect PVE as well, its unavoidable. Most of the PVP changes help to alleviate the extreme cases of stuff being overpowered/underpowered; we do also try to aim for the changes to not harm PVE, or not harm it extremely.

Yeah, I’m not one of the people who think “balance team is terrible! We need a new one” but I absolutely believe there are issues with the current ones process, exemplified by the fact they basically exclusively nerf things, the main buffs they do are more reworks than actual straight buffs

From the long time i was in balance cord the biggest problems i noticed was communication and egoing inside the balance team. Very few people in the bteam actually communicate inside the balance team .

Like for example with there changes and actually try to explain the changes which leads to lots of people just disagreeing and disliking you guys when it was a good change.

HOWEVER. At the same time it can go both ways as if you didnt make a good change and people were trying to explain reasons and trying to improve some of your changes or add a changes its not even read and lots of the times its just automatic no’s without any good reason why not.

They are countless times i seen good suggestions, constructive feedback, good responses by people in the community but then a balance team member just says no without reason or immediatly go to insults when the community member just want a productive balance conversation with a balance team member and honestly i feel like sometimes some balance team members just say no just to say there are right and again it goes to another problem of sometimes balance team members sometimes can never admit when they are wrong and try to improve on whatever balancing thing they are doing. It also doesnt help again that most of these guys in the balance team dont even play the game or are even active and just try to belittle everyone else making themselves bigger any chance thwey get.

And moments like these is what makes a decent amount of the AO community dislike the balance team and why myself and a multitidue of other people left the balance server.

Its because its not a balance server its just a server where tons of people who arent even active in the game just ignore everything and call everyone else trying to make an input into balance dumb.

It also doesnt help that in the balance team they are lots of members that are biased against people just because they dont agree with them all the time just spend there time trying to harrass them out of the server using there mod by deleting there messages (EX: Piles disagreeing with one of my takes and i try to explain my reasoning and he deletes my message for “flood” . ) giving riduculous nicknames (Ex: Piles naming me “skibidi doughy” or whatever it was and tons of other nicknames) Unjustified bans just for funnies (Janitor banned by moochezz for making a joke ) ETC. The amount of people in bteam that just user there powers to harrasing people who just wanted to make an input just because they disagreed with them is countless and its why many people in the community dislike the bteam.

The bteam has obvious flaws but at the very least sometimes yall made changes that really helped made the game funner.

-I just hope that you guys can seriously try to be more communicative with changes,

-LISTEN TO INPUT on changes.

-Talk more with community on why STUFF HAPPENS.

-Dont put off input with just a no and say a NO BECAUSE OF THIS AND THAT.

-Actually make sure nobody abuses there power.

  • Add ACTIVE, and Dedicated members to the balance team that arent just offline 95% of the time and only just be inside the balance team to vote instead of proposing changes or actually saying why they want this and that to happen.

In conclusion im not trying to say balance team is terrible this and that. Because they actually made some changes that improved the game. Its just they are really obvious issues with them that is stopping them from making better changes and actaully being liked from the community.

The few balance team members that i liked from the long time i was there was ( Saev, Meta, Helena, and Neo) who were active and werent abusing and tried to give insight on why they made changes. and i really like them as again they actually tried to make the game better and not trying to belittle everyone else

I just hope the balance team improves though as if they can this game can be a great game

1 Like

I usually see a balance complaint and think “you’re just mad that your broken meta is going down.” But then there’s things like reducing affinities because of the game’s natural stat progression being too strong for people who haven’t caught up.
And then there’s bullshit like exhaustion where it’s just a staff member getting mad that PvP didn’t go their way, and forcing the game to fit to a design that makes them win, whether it’s harmful or not.

There definitely is. Funny enough, there is actually a restructuring for the balance team planned, revamping the process and potentially reviewing members (unsure).

Mostly true. Most of the things that need adjustments are things that are too strong, with things rarely being too underpowered, due to a strangely high amount of things added being WAY too strong on release, a few examples being pulsar, Fury of the Sea, and Surge, and probably Colossal Cleave too, if I were to guess.

The reason a lot of things that are buffs being “reworks” is due to some things fundamentally being impossible to change in their current state, needing too many adjustments to really not be considered reworks.

The damage on Cannon Fist is still just straight bad.

You repeatedly posted messages that filled up the entire chat, you were asked multiple times to split your messages up or send them in the balance discussion channel but you didn’t understand. It might seem unfair to you but when you have had something explained to you several times, you’re expected to go about things differently.

We’ve also explained to you multiple times that we don’t have enough time to debate every single suggestion whenever you’d like.

If a suggestion is denied there’s almost always at least a concise reason posted in the thread, you’ve been consistently expecting an essay-lengthy explanation for every denied suggestion even when you’ve been told that’s not feasible which is pretty sad honestly.

Ignore this if I’m wrong, but do you mean overcorrect here? Cause overstep would mean they’re acting outside of where they’re supposed to.

No. I meant overstep as in going a bit beyond what would be a “reasonable” solution. Taking way too many steps to correct larger issues rather than trying smaller solutions at first. They do not work ‘up’ by taking smaller steps and seeing if it fixes it, they ‘overstep’ by going to the most extreme option.

That was at least the implication, if a crass way to put it.