Continuing the discussion from Arcane Odyssey vs Deepwoken Combat Tags and Kill Credit:
I’m creating this topic to expand upon Metapoly’s thread about Arcane Odyssey’s and Deepwoken’s Combat Tag Systems. More specifically to highlight key differences between Arcane Odyssey and Deepwoken in how they handle PvP in general, especially with how it affects other systems within their own respective games.
I hope with this thread that I could explain my perspective on features within the game and behaviors of development that just build up to an image of why I believe that Vetex doesn’t seem to really take PvP and related systems into regard like Deepwoken’s Developers do. As well as to a smaller extent of why some players don’t want to engage in PvP.
Portrayal of Games
If you were to ask someone what type of game Deepwoken was they would say something on the lines of a PvP based Permadeath Roguelike with some PvE elements. Alternatively, if you were to ask someone what AO was about they would probably answer with it being a story based RPG with an emphasis of exploration and adventure.
Arcane Odyssey doesn’t really market itself as having PvP as a major aspect of the game. Even Vetex himself said that PvP would be removed if it didn’t kill the game. It appears that PvP is just added onto a game that is mainly a story based, exploration RPG without much thought. Driving the point that Vetex could care less about PvP. However, with how PvP is treated as somewhat of an afterthought causes there to be friction between PvP and other aspects of the game such as PvE, especially when updates for PvP negatively affect QoL.
Meanwhile, Deepwoken being a Permadeath based game means that they have to properly pay attention to all aspects of the game which include PvE and PvP and make sure that everything is properly balanced and fair while also having QoL due to the fact that the gameplay loop remains the same of progressing a new build to eventually fights others with. Most players get into Deepwoken because of the progression and the combat system while most people get into AO because of the exploration and the story. A stark difference between the two games.
Frequency and Reach of Balance Changes
One example of their differences would be the frequency and reach of balance changes. In AO, balance changes are limited by their implementation as well as by Vetex not wanting to spend several days doing what he considers boring number changes. This reason is why it seems that in previous updates only some critical balance changes were included instead of all balance changes. Additionally, some balance changes were unable to be implemented in specific ways that would be less intrusive to other aspects of the game such as PvE due to the difficulty to implement them. A direct instance of how disregard for PvP in AO degrades other aspects of the game.
These reasons have started to erode due to the efforts of other Developers such as Moochezz being able to do balance changes in Vetex’s stead. However, the fact that it took well over a year for AO to finally reach this point emphasizes the point that Vetex doesn’t really care about PvP and the balancing around it.
Moreover, if we compare these balance changes to Deepwoken’s weeklies we can see that there’s a massive difference in how PvP is treated. Deepwoken is able to rework entire features and concepts on how certain systems work while also providing buffs and nerfs every week that make sure that oppressive metas are usually dealt with in a reasonable amount of time compared to AO. While also not affecting other systems such as PvE.
Menuing
A small feature that may be overlooked is how both games implement their menu system. In Deepwoken, your character is deleted so that nothing can hit you while the game saves your data and prepares to send you back into the menu. However, in AO if you press the menu button there’s a time between when you press the button and when you actually leave the server that you were in where someone or something can hit you and make you combat log. Moreover, this time is significantly impacted by PC specs even though the entire issue could be easily avoided if AO followed a similar implementation method as Deepwoken’s.
I believe the able to menu is an important part of PvP, more specifically ganking, where it allows people not wanting to engage in PvP an out, similar to it’s function in Deepwoken, but the current way it works actually can punish you if you attempt to use it versus leaving the server through other methods like Alt + F4 or Esc + L + Enter.
Introduction to PvP
Any type of feature in a game should be properly explained upon and introduced to the player so that they can gain a basic understanding and grow. Arcane Odyssey does this with key features such as Cooking, Brewing, and Cargo Hauling where there are quests that teach you the basics and leave the rest for you to discover on your own. However, one system that it does not introduce to newer players is how to properly fight against other players.
In Deepwoken, there’s a variety of ways that the game helps introduce the concept of fighting others players to new players. Gripping other players can give you progression for your build, an incentive to actually fight others, and there are systems in place to help you learn as well such as the Voidwalker Origin, Chime of Conflict, and Battle Royale. There is no equivalent in Arcane Odyssey for these systems. Causing another instance of showing that PvP isn’t held to a high regard as it is in Deepwoken.
Low vs High Levels
Another major difference between Arcane Odyssey and Deepwoken is how lower levels are able to defend themselves against higher leveled players. In Deepwoken, towns have guards to help defend Lower Leveled players against Higher Leveled ones. Additionally, there’s no benefit to gank Lower Levels as you don’t gain anything of value whatsoever. Moreover, Deepwoken’s combat is created in a way where Lower Levels are able to parry other player’s attacks and fight back to a better extent than those in Arcane Odyssey.
In Arcane Odyssey as soon as you reach level 50 you’re basically released into the wild with any player of higher level being able to attack you and face little to no consequence compared to Deepwoken. This issue would also get worse as the level cap increases due to the rising difference in power between what would be max level in AO versus a level 50. Moreover, renown that a player gradually accumulates from just completing quests, story parts, and fighting pirate ships could make them a target for renown farmers. Additionally, with how Arcane Odyssey’s combat is made where you get lots of more combat options the high level you are, you’ll almost always lose fights against higher leveled individuals.
Moreover, in AO even if you’re max level you can still be outclassed by others due to the massive importance of armor in the game for stats. Where those with subpar armor from just playing the story would easily be beat by the meta for PvP.
Guilds vs Clans
A major difference is also how both games have with their Guild/Clan system. In Deepwoken, almost every player in the game is apart of a guild due to the fact that Guilds in Deepwoken provide benefits to all players without causing a direct target to be placed on individuals within guilds. Guilds aren’t necessarily a PvP only thing and all types of players in Deepwoken can be apart of one and use the features it provides to the fullest extent without having gankers specifically target them for guild points.
However, in Arcane Odyssey clans are presented as something that mainly PvP players can partake in due to the fact that you get targeted for being in a guild with even a small amount of infamy. Furthermore, you’re unable to use clans in AO to their fullest extent without being forced to partake in PvP with other clans which is unfortunate due to the fact that features apart of clans like clan building could benefit all types of players in the game. A great feature that is mogged down by the fact that it seems to be only oriented to the PvP part of the game which has shown to be neglected which also negatively affects other players who would want to use clans for non PvP purposes.
Optimization
While this feature isn’t as intentional as the others, it’s a big reason as to why I believe a majority of the player base don’t engage in PvP in AO is because of the optimization of the game. While I understand that there’s only so much that Vetex can do to fix optimization, it still doesn’t change the fact that for FPS reliant activities in the game such as PvP, most players don’t want to engage due to the poor performance. Moreover, those who can PvP with 60+ FPS and gankers can easily outclass those with lower end PCs which cause them to feel like they can’t even fight back or get better.
I can personally attest to being lucky to even get 30 FPS in the game in a good server on my old PC. Moreover, having to wait minutes to respawn after being ganked exacerbates why many in the player base dislike PvP. Additionally, these barriers that people face discourage PvP in general which cause many people not wanting to get into it and be frustrated when they have to.
Meanwhile, Deepwoken is able to have a much more optimized experience despite also being an open world game. While also being much quicker to load into than AO for me and causing players to feel like they can actually learn the system than in Arcane Odyssey. Additionally, Deepwoken’s able to always find even further ways to optimize their games in order to their PvP experience as fair as possible.
Overall, Arcane Odyssey doesn’t seem to actually portray itself as a PvP game, just a game that has the option for PvP which then cause there to be a lack of support for PvP related systems and cause most players to feel unsatisfied about PvP in general. Additionally, a majority of its player base seem to play the game for non PvP related purposes. While in Deepwoken, there’s an emphasis on PvP and actual support for its PvP systems to make sure that all aspects of the game feel fair enough for all players. Deepwoken holds no question on whether or not it holds PvP in high regard while in AO the resolve is shaky at best. AO needs to either make a decision on whether or not it’s going to start focusing more on PvP or focus on compartmentalizing it.