High Level Magic Size Discussion

One thing I think should be talked about is the sheer size of attacks at higher levels. I feel like this is gonna be fairly important moving on with the game. Let me provide you some examples as to why.

What Size Will We End Up With?

TL;DR: MOST LIKELY 2x level 80's size when we reach 850 (after 850 it doesn't increase naturally)

First, let’s try to measure the size of a level 500 100% blast compared to a level 80 100% blast. A level 80 blast is about the size of a player, in other words, 5 studs in diameter. A level 500 blast? Well, we haven’t seen one yet, except for KDS.

It’s hard to make sure of the size in this image due to the projectiles but I think it would be safe to say the blast is about as high, if not then slightly higher than the castle’s merlons (the weird block things lining the sides of the castle.

The merlons are about maybe 7 studs in height, so let’s assume that the level 500 blast is 7.5 studs in diameter, putting it at 1.5x the level 80 blast.

So I think it would be safe to say at level 850 (the cap for magic size gained from leveling), based off the information we have for level 500, the blast sizes could be approximately 2x bigger than at level 80, that is, 10 studs in diameter.

I don’t know if the magic size has been re-adjusted from the time of this clip is or what level it is but just judging from this, 2x size seems to be pretty accurate.

What Does this Change?

So, using the previous info, we can now assume that max magic size is likely going to be 2x larger than level 80 size. Well you see the thing is, size scales, but our ability to dodge doesn’t, meaning that attacks will be MUCH easier to land. Not only that, but clashing would occur more frequently, as the projectiles are larger, meaning it will be harder to squeeze a 20% blast around an opponents 100% blast. Additionally, chasing would be much easier with placed explosions and beams (and blasts for fast magics), it would be much easier to chain hits, and smaller spell sizes would be much more valid options as they would now be much easier to hit.


  • can sacrifice more spell size without losing too much ability to aim
  • clashing would be substantially easier
  • chaining hits would be easier

Implications of Said Changes

Clashing being easier would mean solids would be much stronger, as now they will be able to take advantage of their clashing. Also, with larger attacks, it will be easier for them to aim their slow attacks, allowing for many more options. Also, explosion spells can clash, so with the addition of large size making clashing easier, solid magic users would be able to punish blast attacks with explosions, as the effective range would be larger, meaning you could jump near somebody, blow up, and cancel their blasts in the process.

Attacks being easier to land would probably encourage fighting to be much more airborne than it already is, especially with hovers. People think hover could potentially be useless, but consider this, you can already hit someone like 80% the way through their high jump with a grounded placed explosion. Imagine that with 2x the size, you would need to stay much further in the air to avoid getting hit. Also, blast attacks may be able to hit players mid-jump in a similar fashion to how placed explosions do currently at level 80, meaning staying airborne would be much more crucial.

Self-explosions would also gain the benefit of being able to use much smaller sizes, and in addition to that, explosions scale stronger with size than blasts do while maintaining the same base damage. So assume that you use a 50% explosion. That would be the equivalent of a level 80 using a 100% explosion, and the damage multiplier would be the equivalent to that of a 30% blast, making self-explosions much more devastating. Same logic would apply to other attacks but since self-explosions require no aim it would be much more effective for them than any other spell.

Additionally, pillars would gain more usage, sacrificing horizontal range but maintaining vertical range and damage increase. Setting a 60% explosion with pillar would function similarly to a 30% explosion in terms of damage and horizontal range except with higher vertical range, meaning pillars would be much more versatile than right now.

You would also realistically be able to use more multihits without risking your opponent escaping after like, the 3rd hit. Yes, they still can punish you, however, think bigger. If someone were to use a magic like Light, chaining hits easier would mean more blind, meaning that magics inducing blind would have much stronger usage.

AND, hazards created by magic would take up much more space, meaning that zoning would be buffed.
So, in conclusion:

  • Heavy magics go brrrr
  • Aggressive and defensive self-explosion usage
  • 20-40% explosions would be more useful, 50% explosions would be almost mainstream, pillars would also benefit
  • Ground is a minefield
  • Multihits and blind stacking would become easier
  • Zoning magics go brrrr

Make it 1.2x or 1.5x at least. Not big AoE spam. Fucking bad for pvp

mmmmmm. Ash clouds . . .


I feel like 2x increases the range of possibilities more than it makes combat braindead, also it could be 1.5x, 2x was just the conclusion that I reached based on the data we already have

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Ok I knew I was missing something let me add that

yaaaayy (suck it Poison, Ash clouds don’t ignite)

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twice the size from a level 80?at level 850…Yea you have evidence to back you up but barely twice the size?And i expected ultimate art blast moves to be able to reach the size of riverville or at least half of it

I mean with 100% ult art explosion twice the size would be pretty hefty, plus this is before factoring in Magic Size Enchants

This honestly makes sense as Vetes would want combat to utilize clashing somehow instead of its low occurrence currently. At the same time, projectile size should not grow too fast or we’ll be able to level SummerHold with one blast at lvl 500.

My guild leader, back in the power/defense meta days, focused on pure magic size. When I asked him about it he replied (paraphrased):

It might not be powerful now but in the future magic size will be really powerful.

Every one of these future stats posts I see just shows how right he was.

Level 500 is approx 1.5x so it’s fine, the cap is 850 with around 2x

I’ve seen many people say that magic size was built to scale to a higher level so it does make sense.

An important detail this post is missing is that magic size, and all stats except power and defense, are logarithmically scaled. This means that the curve for “stats put in” to “resulting effect” will look a bit like this:

I’ve made up the numbers for the sake of discussion, but in short, at high levels hybrid builds will be really effective. Vetex has yet to share any info on the scaling formula (aside from 160 = 1.5xish) so it’s impossible to say for sure, but I’m pretty sure the curve is more extreme than the thing I drew in paint - most endgame builds will have high multipliers in every useful stat, and it’ll be impossible to get much higher by specialising.

So while size scales automatically at high levels, once we reach high enough levels to get bigger blasts by default we’ll probably see high agility multipliers in literally every build, which will let us dodge more easily.

This post is about natural magic size not enchantments

I’m pretty sure they scale off the same system, and even if they don’t my main point is that once we have high natural magic size, all our unnatural stats will be through the roof in every build - including agility which negates a lot of the worries from high base magic size.
Natural magic size is hardly going to factor in.

Yes but the only counterpoint here to magic size is gonna be agility

If we’re bringing enchants into the equation, likewise, you can use magic speed or magic size enchantments as well in order to counter that.

Yeah, definitely not saying the lategame meta will be good.
Logarithmic scaling is an awful failure that stifles variety in both earlygame and lategame builds.

I just think it’s unreasonable to have a conversation about level 850 natural magic size without taking into account all the other things we’re getting at level 850.

Hell, a single magic size amulet at level 120 is a 1.5x size multiplier (assuming vetex didn’t lie to us). The mixed build meta is coming, and it’s coming soon.

I mean that wasn’t even my point anyways.

Actually it stifles enchantments lategame but boosts variety earlygame, linear scaling was MUCH worse and almost unnoticeable.

Yes but I literally just stated that out of all the enchantments we mentioned only one counters high magic size and two enchantments counter that one, and I left out cast speed which would mean agility build users would need to react, meaning you could use 3 counterenchantments. Additionally, even if we DON’T factor in any counterenchantments, agility doesn’t change reaction time it just changes your walkspeed. You can increase your speed in order to maintain distance but if anyone uses an unexpected explosion they’re gonna have 0.25 seconds to react, which is average reaction time, and if it’s a Magic like Gold they’ll have an extra 0.1 seconds to escape the explosion, which is not much.

On top of that, we are likely not going to get anything more than 2.5x speed with full agility builds, which if we were to numerically say that magic size and agility countered eachother on a 1-1 ratio, as in 1.5x magic size = 1.5x agility (which as I have explained is a flawed analysis), full agility would partially be higher than NATURAL magic size. With enchants, it would be even harsher. So even by this assumption it’s flawed, and as I said agility doesn’t proportionally increase your reaction time so it wouldn’t be proportional in the first place.

Linear scaling gave percentile stats effectively no effect early, but the token amounts we have now aren’t good enough to be worth using either - log scaling still failed to make the percentile stats actually useful in the early game.

We’ll get a brief period (no formula, but if I had to guess around level 150?) where getting a significant amount of a stat requires build investment and diminishing returns let you spec heavily into one, but it’s really not going to be long before you can get almost a full build’s worth of stats in two different stats by wearing something like a minotaur helmet.
Build variety will happen, but it’ll be extremely shortlived.

“All builds are mixed, with 90% power/defense”
isn’t any better than
“All builds are 100% power/defense”

The best solution is to just remove scaling and handle these stats the same way they were done in AA (flat % bonuses, all items have power or defense and scale that way). Honestly I might take linear scaling over logarithmic though. At least with linear scaling we will eventually reach the point where the stats work properly, even if it is at level 5,000 in 2030.

Logarithmic scaling is 100% an awful failure.

sorry for cutting your post up, but i think there’s just been a misunderstanding

I agree that it’ll be easier to hit things later on - really easy, way too easy. Logarithmic scaling enchantments 100% makes things worse. My magic size/agility comparison in the original post was just to exemplify how little of an effect the natural magic size is going to have - the level 850 meta is 100% going to be defined by logarithmic scaling.

also minor addendum but I doubt 2.5x is the largest multiplier we see
We get 1.5x at 2.5% of the level cap with a single item - there’s no way the logarithm has that steep a dropoff.

The “2x at level 5,000” thing from the trello was referring to just the nimble enchantment, a low level enchantment that doesn’t even make up a majority of the agility in level 80 builds. Vetex 100% plans on much higher multipliers.

You can maintain 1.2x cast speed or 1.3x projectile speed in the earlygame, it’s already good. Also these enchantments are supposed to progress so they obviously won’t be peak level 80/5000, that’.

How will any of this harm build-diversity in the future? Maybe in terms of armour diversity but I’m specifically talking about stats. If you can have 1.5x agility from a half-and-half gear, that’s still diversifying your stats either way.

It was 1.2x at level 5000 not 2x, which puts the expected future stats for agility even lower considering that was the original idea, and anything over than, being generous, maybe 3.5x would literally make the game into running simulator, . We are likely not going to get anything more than 3.5x realistically for agility, so I’m guessing 2.5x.

This is 3.5x speed (check the video on the right, 0 agility. I just took from Polar’s video and sped it up, too lazy to crop out the left image)

Yes but even then the comparison against natural magic size doesn’t really hold it’s own very well, saying that it would have little effect is not at all realistic. Would it have little effect in COMPARISON to the enchant? For sure, but would it have little effect at all? 100% no. This conversation has only just been easy of hitting targets, which 100% certain doesn’t take into account many other things such as clashing or the need to stay more elevated, or zoning out, and either way barrages would still be much easier to hit because even if they’re fast they’d have to dodge a continuous stream of large projectiles, regardless of how fast you are that’s pretty difficult. Even then, my points about dodging still stand unless for some reason we can move 3.5x-5x faster.