yaaaayy (suck it Poison, Ash clouds don’t ignite)
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twice the size from a level 80?at level 850…Yea you have evidence to back you up but barely twice the size?And i expected ultimate art blast moves to be able to reach the size of riverville or at least half of it
I mean with 100% ult art explosion twice the size would be pretty hefty, plus this is before factoring in Magic Size Enchants
This honestly makes sense as Vetes would want combat to utilize clashing somehow instead of its low occurrence currently. At the same time, projectile size should not grow too fast or we’ll be able to level SummerHold with one blast at lvl 500.
My guild leader, back in the power/defense meta days, focused on pure magic size. When I asked him about it he replied (paraphrased):
It might not be powerful now but in the future magic size will be really powerful.
Every one of these future stats posts I see just shows how right he was.
Level 500 is approx 1.5x so it’s fine, the cap is 850 with around 2x
I’ve seen many people say that magic size was built to scale to a higher level so it does make sense.
An important detail this post is missing is that magic size, and all stats except power and defense, are logarithmically scaled. This means that the curve for “stats put in” to “resulting effect” will look a bit like this:
I’ve made up the numbers for the sake of discussion, but in short, at high levels hybrid builds will be really effective. Vetex has yet to share any info on the scaling formula (aside from 160 = 1.5xish) so it’s impossible to say for sure, but I’m pretty sure the curve is more extreme than the thing I drew in paint - most endgame builds will have high multipliers in every useful stat, and it’ll be impossible to get much higher by specialising.
So while size scales automatically at high levels, once we reach high enough levels to get bigger blasts by default we’ll probably see high agility multipliers in literally every build, which will let us dodge more easily.
This post is about natural magic size not enchantments
I’m pretty sure they scale off the same system, and even if they don’t my main point is that once we have high natural magic size, all our unnatural stats will be through the roof in every build - including agility which negates a lot of the worries from high base magic size.
Natural magic size is hardly going to factor in.
Yes but the only counterpoint here to magic size is gonna be agility
If we’re bringing enchants into the equation, likewise, you can use magic speed or magic size enchantments as well in order to counter that.
Yeah, definitely not saying the lategame meta will be good.
Logarithmic scaling is an awful failure that stifles variety in both earlygame and lategame builds.
I just think it’s unreasonable to have a conversation about level 850 natural magic size without taking into account all the other things we’re getting at level 850.
Hell, a single magic size amulet at level 120 is a 1.5x size multiplier (assuming vetex didn’t lie to us). The mixed build meta is coming, and it’s coming soon.
I mean that wasn’t even my point anyways.
Actually it stifles enchantments lategame but boosts variety earlygame, linear scaling was MUCH worse and almost unnoticeable.
Yes but I literally just stated that out of all the enchantments we mentioned only one counters high magic size and two enchantments counter that one, and I left out cast speed which would mean agility build users would need to react, meaning you could use 3 counterenchantments. Additionally, even if we DON’T factor in any counterenchantments, agility doesn’t change reaction time it just changes your walkspeed. You can increase your speed in order to maintain distance but if anyone uses an unexpected explosion they’re gonna have 0.25 seconds to react, which is average reaction time, and if it’s a Magic like Gold they’ll have an extra 0.1 seconds to escape the explosion, which is not much.
On top of that, we are likely not going to get anything more than 2.5x speed with full agility builds, which if we were to numerically say that magic size and agility countered eachother on a 1-1 ratio, as in 1.5x magic size = 1.5x agility (which as I have explained is a flawed analysis), full agility would partially be higher than NATURAL magic size. With enchants, it would be even harsher. So even by this assumption it’s flawed, and as I said agility doesn’t proportionally increase your reaction time so it wouldn’t be proportional in the first place.
Linear scaling gave percentile stats effectively no effect early, but the token amounts we have now aren’t good enough to be worth using either - log scaling still failed to make the percentile stats actually useful in the early game.
We’ll get a brief period (no formula, but if I had to guess around level 150?) where getting a significant amount of a stat requires build investment and diminishing returns let you spec heavily into one, but it’s really not going to be long before you can get almost a full build’s worth of stats in two different stats by wearing something like a minotaur helmet.
Build variety will happen, but it’ll be extremely shortlived.
“All builds are mixed, with 90% power/defense”
isn’t any better than
“All builds are 100% power/defense”
The best solution is to just remove scaling and handle these stats the same way they were done in AA (flat % bonuses, all items have power or defense and scale that way). Honestly I might take linear scaling over logarithmic though. At least with linear scaling we will eventually reach the point where the stats work properly, even if it is at level 5,000 in 2030.
Logarithmic scaling is 100% an awful failure.
sorry for cutting your post up, but i think there’s just been a misunderstanding
I agree that it’ll be easier to hit things later on - really easy, way too easy. Logarithmic scaling enchantments 100% makes things worse. My magic size/agility comparison in the original post was just to exemplify how little of an effect the natural magic size is going to have - the level 850 meta is 100% going to be defined by logarithmic scaling.
also minor addendum but I doubt 2.5x is the largest multiplier we see
We get 1.5x at 2.5% of the level cap with a single item - there’s no way the logarithm has that steep a dropoff.
The “2x at level 5,000” thing from the trello was referring to just the nimble enchantment, a low level enchantment that doesn’t even make up a majority of the agility in level 80 builds. Vetex 100% plans on much higher multipliers.
You can maintain 1.2x cast speed or 1.3x projectile speed in the earlygame, it’s already good. Also these enchantments are supposed to progress so they obviously won’t be peak level 80/5000, that’.
How will any of this harm build-diversity in the future? Maybe in terms of armour diversity but I’m specifically talking about stats. If you can have 1.5x agility from a half-and-half gear, that’s still diversifying your stats either way.
It was 1.2x at level 5000 not 2x, which puts the expected future stats for agility even lower considering that was the original idea, and anything over than, being generous, maybe 3.5x would literally make the game into running simulator, . We are likely not going to get anything more than 3.5x realistically for agility, so I’m guessing 2.5x.
This is 3.5x speed (check the video on the right, 0 agility. I just took from Polar’s video and sped it up, too lazy to crop out the left image)
Yes but even then the comparison against natural magic size doesn’t really hold it’s own very well, saying that it would have little effect is not at all realistic. Would it have little effect in COMPARISON to the enchant? For sure, but would it have little effect at all? 100% no. This conversation has only just been easy of hitting targets, which 100% certain doesn’t take into account many other things such as clashing or the need to stay more elevated, or zoning out, and either way barrages would still be much easier to hit because even if they’re fast they’d have to dodge a continuous stream of large projectiles, regardless of how fast you are that’s pretty difficult. Even then, my points about dodging still stand unless for some reason we can move 3.5x-5x faster.
Actually though, we can still consider that if we get 2x magic size and 2x agility, we would still end up with effectively 4x larger proj size, so maybe outrageously high agility could be somewhat possible, but even then regarding that clip I doubt it, but it isn’t out of the realm of possibility now that I think about it.
What if king david uses 20% blasts
KDS’s blast attacks match up perfectly numerically with Fire’s calculated damage at level 500, as does his HP. Even if you don’t trust the numbers you can confirm logically, blasts and explosions scale differently but 100% blasts and 100% explosions deal the same damage, as does KDS’s blast and KDS’s explosion attacks (428, the formula is (level + 19) * magic multiplier, so (500 + 19) * 0.825 = 428, KDS blast and explosion damage)
You can mantain 1.2x cast speed, but at the cost of over 2x damage and health.
The enchantments now work at low levels (unlike with linear scaling), but they’re not useful. Sacrificing half your health and damage for 0.3 projectile speed is not “already good”.
The only people in this system that build for the percentile stats are collectors - just like when we had linear scaling. In practice, nothing’s changed.
I agree percentile stats should progress, but they should do it in the same way power and defense do. Items should be a constant multiplier relative to your level (which in this case means flat %s), with more powerful items (and hence multipliers) being unlocked as we level up.
I’ve explained this idea in more detail elsewhere, though it’d involve restatting almost every item in the game, so I’m not naive enough to bother writing a proper suggestion. There’s no way it gets accepted.
Stat Diversity != Build Diversity
And just like how in the earlygame you can build 1.2x cast speed, but nobody with half a braincell would do that because the alternative is 2x power and 2x defense, in the late game we get the same one build meta - your options will look something like this:
You can build full casting speed, or disregard the percentiles to focus entirely on defense, but diminishing returns mean you’re losing out on doubling every other relevant stat.
It’s so easy to get a full complement of high multipliers, and so much harder to increase any of them further. Power and defense are the only stats that give any payoff for dedicating more than one item/enchant from your set to them, so your build practically designs itself. There are no good tradeoffs to make here, just “choices” with a correct answer.
It was 1.2x for individual enchanted items, 2x for the full set.
Again, really hard to speculate on log scaling without knowing the formula (I’m convinced vetex is hiding it so people don’t dissect it), but linear scaling was undoubtably going to lead us to 10x+ multipliers with level 5,000 gear. I doubt that’s what vetex intended, but it’s what was planned.
If we waited long enough, he’d probably have band-aid fixed it by reducing the % increase from stats after the multipliers got too ridiculous.
In the same way, I suspect he’ll bandaid log scaling by repeatedly reducing the rate the formula curves off as we level up until it’s basically linear scaling again.
No you can literally maintain this with 63 power and 192 defense, also the 2nd part is untrue Meta has recommended people to put a cast speed amulet in their build. Of course, this is only one example, but surely if the “stat guy” at the least CONSIDERS cast speed, others will too, and popularity doesn’t matter anyways so this entire portion is pointless but might as well menion it. Max defense allows you to have approx 2x HP as well as max power allowing you to have approx 2x damage. Max power POSSIBLE is 113 with a full power build. That means that you already have OVER half of max power which is fairly average. Max defense is much higher but since defense adds onto your base HP you don’t get results as drastic, max defense is around 1.2k HP (600 defense + almost 600 HP), meanwhile 192 is 768, which is once again over half max HP with defense, which is not even close towards whst the average person is gonna be running, which would likely be between 250 and 350. Seeing everuone runnig around with 820-860 HP after the defense nerf,
well, you guess the average from that.
With magic speed you can maintain even better stats than with cast speed
Even despite all this I never said good meant optimal, and it is good, much better than you are currently making it out to be.
Doesn’t matter, if this gets nerfed later on, which if it’s 10x, it will, that’s what will ultimately matter in the end. Also to think Vetex wouldn’t see the stats potentially increasing to 10x is not giving him any lenience, why on Earth would you assume that he would oversee that? It’s like expecting incompotence.
Also with you not noticing he build potential with cast speed and magic speed earlygame, 40 magic speed is like +20-33% and 80 is like +50%, with Magic Aize, it’s confirmed that 160 is like 1.5x, 40 is like 1.1x so I’d assume 70-90 is alrady 1.2-1.33x. This seems to imply the stats curve off much harsher than you give off.
This doesn’t counter my argument, I never implied building on a single stat was a good idea with this conversation.
Also now that you clarified what you mean by build diversity, this literally wasn’t relevant at all. Getting poor results from focusing in one stat is a concern but it had nothing to do with the conversation.