It's about time we have equal rights for all stat allocations | The Close-Ranged Punishers Problem

It's about time we have equal rights for all stat allocations | The Close-Ranged Punishers Problem https://forum.arcaneodyssey.dev/uploads/default/original/4X/9/2/f/92f4bddedf9abd383c002352b0d92ed411003980.jpeg
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Stat builds. They’re supposed to be equal in quality, but they aren’t.
Why not? Well just because of a simple balancing mistake, of course!

a mistake that seems to be actively worsening with each update

so I’m just gonna make it very clear what the problem is, for both the average literate non-insectoid, and for the AO devs.

What’s the dealio?

Some of the builds are challenged with long range, not necessarily because the base range stat is too low for their abilities, but because of abilities that force the player to lower their distance to the target in order to work.

Examples include

Crash, Smash, Rushdown, Selino, Astrapikis, Spirit Rain, Tiger Rush, Shining Cycle, Beast Instinct, and Primal Swipe, just to name a few.

Meanwhile, said targets, including ones that are also range-challenged, have a wide kit of abilities that punish close range builds for being in their close range.

All that fuss leaves a gap in the balancing where a full magic stat spread is the only build that really thrives, by being the only build that has a primarily ranged kit and no expectation to imbue onto a less ranged kit.

Case in point: Allanon, The Broken Prince

and his one simple trick to screw over all non-mages.

Allanon has an enhanced version of the regular “Snare” spell. While this is normally an unreliable little grab for mages, in the hands of this souped-up boss, becomes a weapon of instant destruction for anyone in a certain radius around Allanon.
Because a strength build for example needs to enter that radius to suitably put damage on Allanon, they are wildly more prone to this attack, which can instantly seal their deal depending on their health.

Allanon is by far not an exception. Other bosses such as Lord Elius and King Caesar also switch to a much more deadly set of attacks if you get close to them, and just about every build has attacks that do enhanced damage in a shorter range.

The game treats low range like something that deserves punishment.

You’re not just taking a greater risk for your reward by getting up close; you’re usually putting it all on the line for a quick worthless whack. Playing as a strength build is completely not worth it when your only methods of doing damage strongly receive damage back.
One big reason for this besides the increased damage on low-ranged punisher moves is that a lot of these abilities will intentionally leave you vulnerable, so forget dodging or blocking the counterattack, because you’re forced to stall for a moment while your foe charges something fierce in response.

Cannon Fist tangent here

It’s worth mentioning, the unique Cannon Fist attack, which might seem like a solid ranged option, fumbles for the simple fact that it has no airstalling, meaning that you fall down while trying to aim it, and it is very hard to aim while falling, and even harder to aim while stuck on the ground given the shape of most environments.
I really want the Cannon Fist unique attack to be changed, but that’s besides the point.

So the simple solution is just to lower the damage of close-quarters punisher moves, lower the quantity of close-quarters punisher moves, (at least from now on), and vastly decrease the endlag of close combat to make it easier to avoid reasonable punishments.
And for the love of god, stop giving bosses heaving-hitting, barely-dodgeable, close-quarters punishers.

If you think I’ve missed anything important, then congratulations! We’re on a public forum where you can politely encourage me to change my views and methods!

10 Likes

I feel like Poise is the key here. Pretty sure it’s non-existant for bosses at the moment, but close-range attacks should be rewarded with draining a boss’s Poise, eventually stunning them

Should bosses still be designed much differently to accommodation for close-range? Yes. But if you can’t make each experience equal in difficulty, at least try evening out potential options with a risk vs. reward system

5 Likes

it does but its effectively nonexistant if u fight a boss normally because the only way you can have it appear is just by spamming fighting style m1s on the boss while tanking all the insane high damaging moves all these fucking bosses have at close range

4 Likes

The issue with poise currently is that you basically have to be on the boss 24/7 to actually proc a poise break (like toru said.) The thing is most boss kits in the nimbus sea discourage getting close so you’re basically forced to face tank high amounts of damage if you want to get a poise break off

The poise system is a step in the right direction, but there still needs to be plenty of changes to make boss fights less range dependent

4 Likes

I see no issue with berserkers suffering against Allanon

You reap what you sow after all, hon hon hon!

1 Like

I think combat needs a facelift to improve the experience both for strength builds and other builds as a whole. Endlag makes strength too punishing and not every NPC should be able to fuck you over just because you immediately came within 10 studs of them.

1 Like

as of the moment the only close up move that is not “as easy” to punish is jab (if you miss you don’t get sent back far) At least it gets you decently far away when you do hit, fave strength move I’ve put on my warlord

but seriously, why do they keep screwing over berserkers and everything that needs to be close

add a new boss that is gonna try and stay away cause you can punish them by being close, would be a nice way to turn the tables

1 Like

i promote berserker racism

i agree with all of the above, had to fight allanon as a cannonlord and it made me want to chew on a flintlock barrel-first

i did have access to guns and the greatbow but that didn’t matter because if i’m not within a certain range him my attacks just dont deal damage but that’s an allanon problem and besides the point

1 Like

I think a good buff for fighting styles would be a partial poise break if you hit something while they’re casting a spell. Let’s say that poise has a meter that when filled gets a full poise break. Interrupting a spell would take whatever is in that meter and apply that to a poise break. It wouldn’t be too broken of a feature since you would have to build up poise to do anything ridiculous, and it would give fighting styles a good place in the PvP and PvE meta.

okay but i dont’ like meele builds

what if taking damage while trying to cast a spell increases the time it takes to release it? this would be heavily increased for NPCs

1 Like

Nah this pretty much covers it

Another solution is probably just giving strength builds the ability to back in and out of close quarters more often and faster

1 Like

make close range fighting style attacks cancel spells……………

Make far range magic attacks cancel techniques for parity :blush:

nah cuz mages have to cast their spells while fstyles are just punching, mages have a lot of airstall AND close range abilities
and casting spells doesn’t usually take longer than a second

Yes because parity :blush:

I love severely underestimating the range on my Flash Strike, just to end up next to but not dealing damage to the boss. And then proceeding to eat a 600 damage move for 1/3 my hp.

2 Likes

and if it’s allanon its a oneshot!

I secretly want weapons to get a bit of the mechanics for poise break too.

Not fully but just a bit for some of the more close ranged skills.

2 Likes