Solving Strength route's latest PvE issues

Solving Strength route's latest PvE issues
effort 4.666666666666667 3 quality 4.0 2 reasonability 5.0 2

This idea once sprouted into a PvE-only tool for each stat route, but we couldn’t find any reasonable enough argument as to why the other three stats need it. The idea was scrapped, and this is what remained.


Strength route is having issues in PvE.

Fighting Styles are a fun combat option. Close-ranged and quick, they got great variety in their techniques and are noteworthy in PvP. However, almost all their skills are united in the fact that they are not ranged.

Of all their moveset, only Shot, Axe-Slash and a few Cannon Fist-exclusive moves can be reliably used to deal damage at a distance. This becomes a problem, when more and more enemies are added with gimmicks that would heavily punish coming close to them. Krakens release ink in the water that does rapid damage, dragons are flying and have powerful melee attacks, not to mention the armour breaking, which shouldn’t have been added to begin with, and Allanon has multiple placed and self-explosions at his disposal, as well as the 2000 damage grab (who approved that?). Strength users should not be forced to use Cannon Fist in order to play the game. Hybrids can get by with using other routes, but Berserkers are unable to do that.


Range is supposed to be Strenght’s weakness, and it is balanced around that. This much is fine. It isn’t Strength, but the enemies that must be changed.

Enemies and/or bosses that rely on projectile spam, or are otherwise extremely dangerous to approach will receive downtime periods in their movesets, or abilities that are safe to wait out close to them.

The list is: adolescent+ dragons, krakens (+ Omen), Lord Elius, Allanon, Ormolu, King Caesar, Rear Admiral Amelia.


Alternative solution: Tidestone Tridents.

After you receive your first awakening at Poseidon’s temple as a Strength user, you will be able to grab a bundle of old, engraved tridents from a small pile of offerings in the corner, with Poseidon’s permission. These tridents will appear as a tool, and are only accessible to Strength users. The tool will do no damage to players. This is a PvE-only assist, it doesn’t impact PvP in any way. Strength must keep its weakness of being close-ranged.

The tool can be thrown as if using Polearm Throw weapon skill, although it won’t interrupt the user’s momentum. The damage equals that of the user’s selected fighting style’s melee attack, and the fighting style’s own stats also alter the trident’s parameters. The style selected is your first by default, but if you have learned more than one from an awakening, you can switch them in the same way you would imbue them. Styles with meters, such as Thermo Fist, will charge off of landing the tridents. Cannon Fist has no special interactions with the tool, and instead behaves ordinarily.

The purpose of these tridents is to give Strength a semi-reliable option to damage enemies at range. The explosion area of this trident landing would be equal to that of Blast spell, however the hitbox is as thin as a thrown polearm of Weapons. Not the greatest assist, but it is at least something Strength can do against a flying reptile with percentage-damaging claw swipes or a giant octopus will killaura. Brainless? Yes. Spammy? Yes. Necessary? Yes.

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Hm, 10 hours passed, 29 people visited the thread, and no replies. Weird. As if something is wrong here. You lot are making me feel uneasy rn.

tbh most npcs and bosses lack proper strategy stuff to defeat them, like, you just shoot and dodge, block and parry occasionally
which is a problem, they do just have ranged attacks and lack such variety, mostly
while also enemies like kraken and dragons basically require ranged combat
and that’s also a problem

so having a exhaustion mechanic for bosses/monsters can be a good temp solution to this

btw tidestone tridents do sound cool but i dont like the fact that i will have to use something else than my own hands

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I think the problems with Strength is moreso a problem with NPCs lacking strategy while being oppressive

Also I think tridents would be better fit for weapons than strength

Okay, I can give Strength a scalpel. Cut off your fists and throw them at people, then binge on heal potions to get the hands back. Better now? I don’t think so.

And they would. The initial idea was that Strength has Throwing Harpoons as a ship attachment, and I had to theme it around Poseidon somehow, therefore tridents

Also want to point out that you keep spelling Strength wrong lol

bold of you to assume that i dont have DETACHABLE HANDS

Huh? Wait, for real? Shet…

Fixed now :+1:

I’m so used to writing g, h and t in english words in this exact order.

I agree that strength needs some changes. It is a class that fundamentally goes against AO’s PVE gameplay of “blast spam & kite away”. However, I don’t really agree with your solutions: 1) changing bosses to suit one radically different playstyle doesn’t make sense, especially since a lot of the bosses you mentioned are quite well designed imo 2) Tridents diminish the identity of the strength class because it essentially reduces strength to just another mage (we see this already with spirit), which harms the “melee fantasy” of the class.

I’d have to think about this topic a bit. I’ll come back later if I have more ideas.

Sure, I’ll wait. I agree that these aren’t the best solutions, but something has to be done between Strength and bosses. We can’t just make Crash and Blitz teleport all the way to a kraken’s tentacle, then somehow return the user to their ship, can we? A ranged attack is required

Trust

Either that or give beserkers vicious mockery because speech (and thus insults) is also made by your body, which beserkers rely on

it technically helps every class, just it helps strength the most by letting it go from near-useless to at least viable in pve

also most of the bosses are well designed around magic, sadly i dont think many of the testers ever thought to use berserker against bosses like allanon that have mile wide aoes that can kill you in seconds and fly to unreachable heights (especially without minmaxed builds or very little techniques outside of the base a couple rares since you realistically wouldnt have that much at that point in progression) or something like ormolu where if you arent distancing yourself then you’re also going to die in seconds.

I don’t think Lord Elius would need it but it feels weird to give the mechanic to the bosses that strength would struggle at rather than just applying it to everyone

:eyes:

What greek god can this be associated with? Dionysus? Hermes?

Well, if the boss doesn’t need it, why bother changing the moveset?

No, you just go to the mentor from who you learned the fighting style from, go and say ‘how do I target ranged enemies’ and they’ll give you a list of insults to add to your vocabulary (technique renaming thing) so you can deal pve ranged damage with your techniques
Trust

what if instead of adding an obtuse bandaid solution the game was actually designed with fighting styles in mind

or what if story bosses had different movesets depending on if you’re a berserker/cqc class

Someone get the Shrek Gif with the book.

Okay so I’ll draft something more detailed later on, but I think I have some general directions and principles.

Firstly, I think preserving the melee fantasy of the strength class is of the utmost importance. I do not want Mage 3.0. If that means berserkers cant enjoy fighting krakens, then so be it, I guess they have to resort to cannonfist. But, we can still help them out in other areas, such as fighting Allanon & dragons, we just have to make it work while keeping strength’s melee focused identity. (axe-slash and cannonfist existing as options are fine, but they shouldn’t be the “main thing”)

Secondly, there needs to be more incentive to strength classes engaging in melee combat. Currently, the risk to reward ratio is just off: you’re risking your life fighting melee for what, less damage than the mage sitting across the screen? Somehow, we need to achieve 3 very important things: 1) allow strength classes to closer the gap against mobile enemies 2) enhance their survivability at close range 3) reward them for not only being, but staying at melee range.

Thirdly, strength currently doesn’t really fulfill the melee fantasy that well. You’d pick berserker imagining yourself as some “anime martial arts master”, but then you realize you are less mobile than pretty much every other class in the game, and most of your attacks are super clunky. That just sucks, so I believe strength should be given the most combat mobility of all stats. (you see this in other games as well. Ranged characters by default have a huge advantage, and melees often make up for it with mobility)

Nah, I want it to be related to somebody in the pantheon.

in that case i dunno