A brief series of points as to why I think 4 way savants could and SHOULD have access to lost magic

Four way savant is a technically complex yet fascinating build that requires players to maximize their stat point values by understanding how the progression systems work and what things require more investment to suit their playstyle best. Such a complex form of the regular savant we’re all familiar with shouldn’t be punished by locking them out of what’s effectively the main draw to all magic based builds, that being lost magics. Here’s a few brief arguments that I’ve formulated which hopefully can convince you too that losts should be a feature for everyone (that’s magic based, at least)

A tale of two savants

If my memory serves me correct, during a QnA session techlevel discussed the possibility that savants most likely would have access to losts. It’s the most simple point that I want to bring up but if we’re understanding this correctly then that means he was most likely referring to 3 way savants, the more common counterpart to the build. I want to get this point out of the way first as it’s the most up to interpretation (I don’t even think that I have the full picture here), and I think it’s just something to consider moving forward.

Calvus: A fool with a tool

Probably my strongest argument here for why 4 way savants with losts should be genuinely considered: It’s simply the fact that in the canon lore of AO, Calvus is a savant. He’s heavily implied to have stretched himself too thin across too many things at once, which is why he’s so easy to defeat despite being far higher level than us in the story. While he doesn’t have any spirit based attacks, the fact that it’s described as “too thin” and coupled with the fact that his HP pool is so high does somewhat make me think he may have invested a little into spirit too (back then, it was vitality, though that’s an entirely different can of worms). Regardless, I think you can see where this is probably going. Calvus has aether magic, a mutated lost form of light that you’re probably very familiar with by now. My point is simply that if the canon explicity shows savants with losts, then I don’t think 4 ways with losts are impossible.

Losts are explicity NOT stronger than base magics, they’re alternatives

Around the time when the dragon update dropped, I believe through the grapevine I and many others learned that lost magics will not be direct improvements to base magics, but rather optional sidegrades that provide their own sets of strengths and weaknesses. This makes them much more flexible and mechanically interesting, and it also allows base magics to still shine. Now I’d argue that this point can bend both ways, on one hand, some people may think that 4 way savants should NOT have more magics to work with, as they have 3 other stats at their disposal, however, I believe that more versatility and unpredictability is all that savant is about, its telos, if you will. Preventing the build that’s all about having a lot at a lower tier yet fundamental and important content from accessing a major piece of content feels… frankly just not right.

It’d be cool man come onnnnnn :aga:

Shortest point here, but come onnnnnnn, it’d be cool! it’d also encourage the playerbase to break away a little from the norm and experiment with strange stat distributions instead of being mages or hybrids. Nothing much else to say, I just want to see more unique savant builds with losts, as the potential is incredibly high.

(Bump because the forums crashed and I think this topic got buried)

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY.

Mages gonna be PISSED.

Bro I just got different pants…

Not exactly. Mages will have access to ancients (and hybrids probably will too), which gives them their own unique edge against savants. I think that’s perfectly reasonable though, both from a gameplay and lore perspective. Ancients might be a bit too advanced for the average savant, but having dominion over green wind that can dice your vegetables doesn’t sound unreasonable

You hold no loyalty to 1 path so why should you receive the gifts of those who do?

(Also lost magic imbues on strength weapons would be cancer to fight against)

Think of it this way:

Ancients/Legendary relics and weapons/Ancient styles are THE head honchos of progression for pure and hybrid builds. They’re the true endgame that reward the most committed. However, losts and everything inbetween are more or less just “extra”. As stated before, losts don’t exactly completely overshadow base magics, therefore there’s no real reason to exclude them.

I mean… would it really? They’re probably going to get nerfed to the ground or rebalanced, and pure warlords or mages with significantly higher tier spells are far more likely to be problematic

Realistically hybrids would only be able to get anything ancient tier if they invested the bare minimum into their secondary stat, even then there’s a good chance that might not be enough to qualify for them. Not to mention it’s hard to believe that lost magics won’t overshadow base ones when some of them are outright combinations of base magics

Yeah cause they did a real good job balancing currently savant and besides it’s not like savants need access to the high end skills to completely dominate.

Five. Hundred. Downscales.

Honestly atp AO is never going to be truly 100% balanced and while that’s a controversial topic on its own I don’t think the fear of a “super unfair metagame!11!!11!!!11!!!1111!!!” is necessarily anything related to 4 way savant having lost magic access. Another factor I haven’t mentioned is that 4 way savants sacrifice a lot in terms of move quality for their versatility. Unless you’re explicitly running arcanium weaponry, you will always have your blasts seem pitiful in comparison to even a 3 way savant.

Which is going to be irrelevant since tier scaling as a whole is getting removed

Wait holy shit what?

Damn that’s crazy bruh

Well anyway I don’t think a 4 way savant with regulus is very scary compared to a death/equinox/electron mage or hyperblitz fist warlord

Ecks dee

Yeah scaling now goes off of level capping at level 100 with the only later increases coming from awakenings

Depends on how the new devs handle arcanium strength weapons

I think another point I’d like to bring up is the fact that compared to other builds savants have the most exponential growth when a new level cap raise comes along as they gain the most value from effective stat distribution, and while that might sound like a negative against letting 4 way savants have losts, I think it makes my argument stronger, because it means that savants have to most likely delegate a lot of their stat points into magic for losts, so it’s not like 4 way savants are just going to have losts for free, neither will 3 way ones either if we’re being honest.

Savant just as a whole should feel rewarding not through big numbers or a straightforward gameplan, but through the nuance and planning it takes to create one, especially a four way. And by giving access to losts, it makes all that strategizing and research more worth it. RPG games are great when they reward creative builds over the metagame and it would be genuinely cool to see weird niche stuff like a rupture/ember staff/arcanium/thermo savant or something compared to whatever will be the next big thing in the future

there’s no difference between 4 way and 3 way savant, just say savants should get access to them

and for savants to get access to them, that would also mean savants would need to have their max cap go from 50%-1 back to just 50% (which i do agree with), so that at level 600 they could invest 50% of their points into magic to get 600, and then have the other 50% spread across 2-3 other stats (around 200-300ish each)

also a few things

false, they are explicitly direct upgrades to base magics

no, you can’t apply gameplay standards to lore, because then he’d be a hacked savant with 600 magic, 270 weapon, and at least 80 strength

he has no relic and he isn’t a legacy so as such he has no spirit investment

strongest argument for a major change to the game is lore reasons :broken_heart:

Hey man it would’ve worked if vetex was still fully in-charge

Erm

No, no they aren’t.

As far as I’m aware nothing is overtaking light’s speed or shadow’s great stats (Darkness is probably going to have some sort of downside, my guess is insanity related)

Are we fr?

He’s like canonically 500 levels higher than us what are you on :sob:

I would like to clarify

I might be arguing for the wrong thing here

As one of you said earlier, savants in general should be able to access losts, it should be low enough to where even a 4 way with high enough magic can obtain it

And as I’ve stated before, not only is that a good thing, but it feels effectively necessary to help keep the scale even, as it’d be a little weird for savants to not really be able to unlock what’s effectively mid game content (we are still around the earlier parts of the story)

I’m pretty sure nobody here said that

Okay they didn’t literally type word for word “Yeah savants should have losts” but the way they worded it made me reconsider how I wrote it