Community Dissonance: PVE vs PVP, and how can we fix it?

Game Discussion
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Today’s been a bit… eventful on the forums. Couple of posts cropped up, tempers were flared, arguments flung around, and it’s gotten me to thinking about the real core of why there is such a radical divide in the community. And spoiler alert- it’s probably not something we can fix.

We can put Band-Aids on it, mess with it a bit, but without considering both sides of the community, certain changes that seem good to one side can be disasterous for the other.

For example; love potions. A PVE players DREAM. Telling pvp players to fuck off- but, however, in the same consideration, these were a PVP players nightmare. And not just for pvp players who want to jump innocent timmylovesroblox2014 or something. Any pvp player could use love gels to essentially ‘escape’ failed ganks, and it led to a pretty vocal crowd calling for love potions removal. After all, having someone attack you, only to lose and get a free escape can only be incredibly frustrating. Yet love potions were quintessential for a pve player who wants to remain unbothered.

This parts a bit of an essay, sorry.

Essay Part 1

So the point I’m really getting at is this, we have a community full of people who have these vastly differing ideas of what is ‘fun’. For me, Dark sea is the endgoal. I want to explore it, see all there is to see, I want to go nuts, get a buncha chests, come back, die because I tabbed out, whatever. For other people, leaderboards, or just dueling is the endgoal. PVP is infinitely replayable after all. Even two players with similar builds will rarely have the same gear stats or playstyle. Ao’s greatest strength is the collassal build variety at the players fingertips.

But World PVP matters a lot to certain people too, and therein lies the Major Dissonance. World PVP. Most MMOS strictly set limits on where you can PVP. In fact, there is one MMO we can draw comparison to: Shadowbane

I researched this MMO before really trying to draw this conclusion. Has this worked before? An MMO that doesn’t let you truly be safe anywhere? Well, Shadowbane isn’t a really proper 1:1, it was after all, more focused on its PVP, but that even lead to more casual pvpers feeling frustrated . There was nowhere safe in the game, just like AO. Once you got past the starter areas, that’s it. you can be ganked any time. Now it’s an old game, but some of these articles and complaints are more recent from rebooted servers by old fans.

So this makes me question, ‘what would AO be like with Safe zones?’ Thinking on it, there are only a few places that could ever really qualify for that. Now, I will give this advice to anyone who wants to do game design, or general ideacrafting. Think of what could go wrong first, what you might lose. Safezones in AO are basically guaranteed to kill ganking. If they are true safezones in any way, then you cannot be under threat there. (Not even hunter tag)

And that’s why we can’t ever have them. PVE players, though a majority, are not the whole of the community. And safe zones would kill world pvp stone dead, and all the hours of balancing & changes that went into it would be moot. There would be no point in grabbing a players poster with the knowledge that if they step foot in a certain area you will never be able to claim it.

So you have to think of outside the box fixes, tiny, ducktape solutions that won’t inconvenience PVP players but can try to save PVE players, and the in the end these will never be true solutions that PVE players are looking for.

Essay Part 2

I’ve oft’ compared PVP and PVE players to kids in a sandbox. PVE players get the sand castle building tools, and PVP players get the kickball. Now PVP players don’t have to knock over the sand castle, but there’s nothing stopping them from doing it, and the PVE players aren’t going to be able to do anything about it. This is how I consider the life of PVE players. In a game with world pvp, its just a sad fact that you can be bullied out of the game for no reason other then someones entertainment.

And we can raise our pitchforks and call these people assholes and demand retribution all we want, but at the end of the day, they are just playing the game in the means they were allowed to. If there were punishments in place for bullying players on repeat, that could act as a proper deterrent- but how can you really enforce that through game mechanics?

You could make someones boat immune to damage a short while after respawning it when it was sunk. Prevents people from camping it, but what about if that person tries to abuse that invulnerability to clap back? You could despawn all of a ships sealed chests and cargo when it sunk, so there is no point in stealing from other players! Yet if someones boat sinks, hours of work is gone in an instant with no chance to recollect it. You could introduce diminishing returns for repeatedly hunting one person, but then it would be more efficient to leave so they can’t reclaim what they lost whilst you would gain less.

There are a lot of holes in many of the potential solutions, and I want to my damndest to plug these holes, but at the end of the day they are all popsicles on gaping wounds- its not gonna solve the problem. More likely, kick the stone down the road.

I’ve rarely been in a community with such a large divide between the different types of players, and every bit we can bring these two halves closer is something worth celebrating. I love AO’s community, and don’t like seeing it boiling over in violent arguments, with people slinging swears and personal insults left and right. I get, I shouldn’t fully expect maturity from a roblox community of all things, but I want to do all I can to try and bridge the gaps between this divide.

So what’s the point of this big ass post? It’s mostly to try and create a space for civil discussion (Pipe dream, I know), regarding the games state for both PVE and PVP players, and how concession made by either side affect the fun of the game. As well, potentially brainstorming together ways to make sure everyone can have their fun.

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Bro cooked :cook:

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I’m a little concerned for how it’ll be when the storyline starts updating again. Ravenna is giant with multiple spawns, it’s hard to track people and easy to escape. Once the storyline updates it’s gg. Imagine something the size of Sailors Lodge but with 1 spawn point and every max level spawning there for multiple months

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blud is a chef :cook:

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this is why I kind of wish we could have some control in where we spawn

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Like what happened with launch, I imagine Vetex will lower the server player count. Otherwise, it’ll be a fucking shitshow.

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honestly? true, I liked having the option to set my spawn in AA.

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I will admit, there were some times where I have gotten frustrated by spawning at smaller islands, or even Ravenna. After all we only really spawn at like, 5 spots on Ravenna. A dedicated group of assassins once camped me out of a server by just having a member at each spot. And that’s just Ravenna, imagine if you had- not even sailors lodge, but somewhere like frostmill, where its a mountainous island and you spawn on the lower parts.

But making smaller islands safe zones is, as I said, already gonna be a no-go. As the others said though, setting Spawns might negate this problem entirely. Heck, if you could incorporate those forum suggestions for ‘inns’ then hell you could even have an immersive way to change up where you spawn in any given sea.

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There are three camps that need to be considered in any discussion like this.

The True PvE Mains:

People who only log onto Arcane Odyssey for the PvE. They’re either completely unwilling to give PvP a chance, even with friends, or had a negative experience/experiences in the past that made them commit to only PvE.

There’s nothing wrong with this playstyle at all, and at a glance, some may consider their vitriol towards PvP mains justified. However, I think something that needs to be remembered is that though PvE is the main focus of Arcane Odyssey, it simply isn’t enough for many people who play frequently. There simply isn’t a lot to do at all currently, aside from setting silly goals and hoarding items for when the next update rolls around.

PvE mains cannot entirely blame PvP mains for curing their boredom with random fights and ganks; there is very little content in the game on account of it being early access. I understand that in particular it can feel awful to lose a lot of time and effort to getting randomly attacked, especially with Dark Sealed Chests on the line. However, the Darksea is a roguelike environment. It’s not a purely PvE zone; you cannot consider weather and Atlanteans your only threat, especially when exiting with hours of hard work.

Toxicity feeds toxicity, and the anger of bad experiences and run-ins with PvP-focused players is bound to get those same PvP-focused players mad in return. It’s a never-ending cycle, accentuated by the only real current loot pursuit in the game being completely susceptible to the whims of a bored player willing to attack you and steal what you’ve been working on/grinding.

These pain points will be alleviated with time, but it’s important to remember that in the end, it’s only a game. Yes, some people are assholes and will taunt you for failing to defend yourself. You always have another chance to head back into the Darksea, and maybe take a sneakier route on the way out/back. Be cautious and smart.

The Full Experience Fans:

The camp I fall under. I enjoy Arcane Odyssey’s PvE equally to its PvP, though my opinions on both fluctuate with time. I think the majority of these players are spectators on these types of debates and arguments, as they don’t truly fall into either camp. They might get mad on occasion when it comes to losing some progress, but they’ve also likely done it to others before. Anyone with a shred of hubris who falls under this categorization probably doesn’t have much of an opinion on these issues.

At least from my perspective, I wish all players would fall under this category. Quite obviously that’s never going to happen, but if anyone has the most healthy viewpoint regarding the game’s community issues and the massive rift between the PvE mains and PvP mains, it’s us. Typically neutral till the end, and satisfied by the time they spend on the game.

PvPHeads:

Some tame, some toxic, PvPheads are a very mixed bag and only satisfied by open Elysium servers and rewarding ganks. With the lack of sustainable PvE content in this game outside of hoarding, many eventually fall to this camp out of sheer boredom and willingness to experiment. These players have been around since AA; I was one of them, at that time.

The Arcane series has such strangely unique combat that the appeal is quite clear for these players, and the world is their sandbox. Whether they want to fight with friends, start beef at Ravenna, or ruin someone’s day with a well-timed Dark Sea gank, they’re in it for themselves; they play ‘greedily’. I think it’s impossible to blame someone for seeking their own fun over the enjoyment of others, especially with the dopamine rush Player vs. Player combat in any game can provide.

These players will likely never disappear, but many from this camp will likely fold into the Full Experience Fan classification in due time, as PvE becomes a more sustainable, enjoyable, and rewarding experience throughout progression, and PvP becomes inherently less skill based and much more chaotic as levels and tiers rise.

Overall:

There is no short-term solution to the community tension the game is currently experiencing. I think time and content will help with these issues quite massively. This is just part of the community’s growing pains, and as the level cap rises, more content is added on both ends, and the game becomes fuller and more fleshed out, disputes like this won’t be nearly as common. Will they still happen? Of course, but I think both parties will be more willing to understand the others’ side.

This is also a symptom of the Dark Sea’s loot structure. When anyone better than you, or anyone willing to play more dirty than you are gets the jump on you and steals hours of loot, that’s never going to feel good, ever. It’s roguelite, and I think a lot of people are forgetting that more than PvE threats can disrupt your progress or end your run in this zone, or when coming out of it.

Sorry if I repeated myself on any points, just wanted to share my own thoughts on the subject.

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I was wondering what you were taking so long to write, and I see now! the points you make are pretty good, and I agree with the classification of the various playerbases that inhabit the game, I’m in the “full experience” part myself, I used to just be a PvE only guy but recently got really into PvP as a thing I do when I’m wanting to try out a new build, and you do make a good point on the way the arcane games combat feels just being totally unlike anything else, closest thing I can think of is those “arc of the elements” style games but even then those just capture the magic experience, not including the FS and weapon paths for combat, OF>AA>WoM>AO has mostly just been a steady path refining this, so it only makes sense that the portion who enjoy PvP and the portion who enjoy PvP and PvE has grown.

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My negative experience with this game’s PvP is simply that, until recently, there has been no good place to practice, and until Elysium becomes public, there will be no constant and reliable place to practice.

This game’s PvP looks like something that feels better to play the better you are at it.
For me, the proud worst PvPer ever, the PvP combat feels like complete and utter janky shit, but I’ve seen high skill level PvP, and I want to do that at some point.
It looks fun.

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Don’t worry, I did that quite a lot in my own rant.

I too fall into the full experience package. I used to be a PVE only player- primarily because after a sort of, well this is gonna sound dramatic, but someone made an attempt on my life and harassed my family for months because of a game. After that, I kinda endeavored to stay away from communities, stay away from PVP, basically play MMOS on my own, maybe hold the occasional conversation.

That’s why when WOM had its guild update I was devestated that the game just fell apart into PVP players dominating the scene wholeheartedly. I wanted a guild for me and my friends because of the cool sounding building features, and that dream was moot for us casual pve players after that update. Yet, knowing AO was on the way I tried to bide my time and wait patiently, and what we got now is so much better, and yet… still pretty heavily pvp leaning.

Some people won’t be satisfied with the answer that ‘well you’ll just have to play safe’ when they are turning in loot because they don’t want to have to worry about whether someone will ruin their fun, and I don’t think that’s a major crime.

Now I gradually came to enjoy, and eventually love PVP in AO, though I would say I am probably the same type of jerk who only wants to PVP at Elysium. Yet there is still that bit of me that sees where people are coming from when they just want to be left alone to play a game they love in peace. I had a friend, who was loving the game quit for three months because they were getting camped at Cirrius, and there was just, nothing to really do about that. ‘Stop playing the game and swap servers’ is not a fun solution for most new players.

So, my main hope is that there is enough catering to both sides of the community to keep people happy. I didn’t cover this- but PVE also doesn’t really have any long-term goals outside of sunkens right now (Which are too reliant on luck for most reasonable people to try to purposefully obtain them).

If PVE had long term goals that couldn’t be tainted easily by other peoples interference, then we could sure start to see more statisfied pve players.

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It’s so polarizing. WoM’s guild update was, in my personal opinion, the best time in any Vetex main-series game I’ve ever had. So many memories, so much community, but it’s always strange seeing it from the other side; people who were completely indifferent, or absolutely hated it.

Not a crime at all. It sucks to have to play around paranoia, but there’s really no easy solution to this that wouldn’t conceptually tank AO. PvP-restricted zones, no-PvP servers vs. PvP-active servers, etc. would all divide the community into two entirely different playerbases even more than it already has. It’s just something that has to be dealt with for now.

Always hate seeing stuff like this, but it’ll get better in time. Once again, a symptom of us being locked to only one Sea.

All in due time. Every update the content stacks and stacks up, and we’re only in early access. I have no doubt in my mind there will be more than enough replayability and long-term goals for both sides in due time.

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This is something we often bring up. The skill floor for pvp is kinda high to the point new players struggle heavily and won’t find it enjoyable. Dodge reflexes only made this worse. Isn’t rly an easy solution to it either

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I greatly agree from the perspective of a full experience player, but

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Yeah. Finding ways to lower the barrier to entry without lowering the skill ceiling is incredibly, incredibly tough.

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tbh I think most of the indifference came from people who just wanted guilds to hang out with a group of friends and maybe pull in randos as more friends/goof around, I imagine most of the hate though came from non-guild players who just played the game and usually didn’t touch PvP, I didn’t play WoM during that time but I cannot imagine it was pleasant if you never really bothered with PvP and were being attacked by people who lived and breathed it.

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I do think the cone detection changes certainly didn’t help the skill floor- especially for players who are unaware that they even exist. Yet on the flip side people who know how to abuse the mobility granted by unrestricted crash/rushdown are incredibly annoying to fight- just imagining them with dodge reflex gives me the heeby jeebies.

The only real way to fix this would be some sort of ELO system. (In fact, in general I think AO needs a more hardcore combat tutorial where it kinda sits you down and says ‘do this to block, do this to dodge, time this well to parry’. I know its not everyones cup of tea but sometimes a more streamlined tutorial is necessary to try and get people on the right foot to start.

I didn’t even try blocking any attacks until I was at Calvus haha.

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Back in wom, I was definitely more interested in pvp than I am today, be that because of the simpler combat system or the lack of other things to do, but back then there wasnt as much consequence to getting killed by other players, save some crowns and an infamy point or two.

The problem now is that getting killed randomly has a lot more consequences for you. Galleons being lost is fine, but if someone hunts you, your fame goes down, sometimes by a significant amount, though with deckhands not requiring renown anymore this is mitigated.

However, now that we have ships tied to our character, anything we lose on them can mean a much greater time loss. Many times have I been doing a cargo run to try and get a new ship type, investing a very large proportion of my money into it, only for someone on the way to spot my caravel or ketch and sink it for literally no reason nor motive. This even happened to me when I was level 70, and two level 125s just ran by me and killed me. What this does is just waste all the time spent trying to progress, just for someone brief dopamine rush. And this is even worse in the case of bronze and dark sealed chests. And it also why I really dislike pvping nowadays, especially with the bloated stats due to atlantean essence and gems.

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I recently started blocking more myself lol, although I think I’m doing it wrong… I play zerker and I usually just hold G whenever I go in for an attack so If they decide to trade I might block a follow-up attack, gotta get better at reaction blocking but my PC kind of sucks whenever the destruction clouds from my attacks happen lol.