max level savants when they realize there’s a limit to how many things they can use at a time
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Pure builds with 1000 into their stats sending attacks bigger than mount othyrys
i don’t like it very much since it remove the unique aspect of vitality which is being tanky
and currently, spirit weapons are mostly boss drop, which mean that ‘Oracle’ will only have Eagle Patrimony at the start which skill are less versatile than magic and most weapon (which are easier to find)
Can’t really say much cause it’s constantly changing and very unfinished. It’ll be interesting what they’ll do for new players who only start with eagle patrimony.
The system of having more hp at the cost of less dmg / drawback was very unique and versatile which was very enjoyable to say at least.
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I like this change, but regeneration should be buffed as compensation for this tbh
This
That’s what point I’m tryna make
This is kind of a dumb rework, but I understand where it’s coming from.
Vitality builds didn’t deserve +50% HP and regeneration for litterly like 2 drawback
Good change
Vitality was going to be a balancing nightmare if it, for some reason, had seperate innate stat bonuses that no other class got for free.
if that’s the case you could also give other classes something else in exchange
so vitality got extra HP
weapons/strength could get a more fleshed out version of the current limb loss resistance
magic could get reduced energy costs
probably not cooking with this one but oh well
that could be done to balance it all, but it’d still be a huge unnecessary headache when the system’s been working just fine.
Magic is good
I would argue it’s skills are the most versatile. It has a blast, a barrier, a mobility option and a close-range high payoff option.
Parry!
18 damage
eh i felt a bit disappointed at first because i reaaally like tanky stuff that takes your hp to deal damage (e.g. revenant from trove), but as others have said, if vetex and the team can make unique skills that diferentiate themselves from other classes i think that’d be great, but if not, then it’d just be reskinned magic without the customization
Assuming you can parry 2 pulsars 2 javelins a cannon and probably some other ultimate art spells as well in a span of 10 seconds then you are fine
I understood the balance nightmare Vitality was (and would be); but given how stat build focused the game is it made Vitality more enjoyable as a stat. I will say this before my rant: whatever happens with Vitality in the end, I don’t think it’ll be the universe-ending turn-off for most people; me personally, I’ll continue to be that Vitality guy because it just looks cool and I’ve always loved Tanks/supports, and because Vitality will still have those options (plus it’s not like it’s awakening won’t have damage reduction), I’ll continue with it. I just think that just because the execution was poor, doesn’t mean the idea is.
this comment is long enough to be its own discussion, and making a “TLDR” for it is quite difficult. I’ve formatted it so it doesn’t eat your screen, but you’ll still have to read a decent bit. I can give a summary of each arc instead:
- Arc 1 is mostly why vitality was a good concept.
- Arc 2 is about fixing its current issues/future issues.
- Arc 3 is more about how the other classes could take from Vitality and be more unique.
The actual comment (its long)
Arc 1 - Why Vitality was good
For any person playing (at least imo), it’s the only stat that makes the player feel like their developing every time they invest into it, as each level gives something valuable that you’d have to use gears to supplement. It also made the class unique; as it currently stands Vitality builds invest into stats differently than any other build and that made them fun.
I get that the class is still unique, it’s moveset and play-style will be different from weapons and magic; but I think bringing it back to needing to use the “same” equipment as other builds is boring.
Stats are kinda boring right now - in PvP
AO is very gear stat focused, and Vitality changing that, by even a little bit, made it fun to use as a class. You had to consciously think about everything you put on more than the surface level: I need damage so power; I need health so defense; my abilities are large/fast, attack speed/size; and the occasional, I need to run or chase opponents, let’s invest less into one of the previous and get some agility.
That’s it for every other build, just those simple thoughts; and that’s not a bad thing, but because combat is so gear-stat focused, it could be a bit more dynamic for each play style. Comparing the average stat build to a vitality one:
I gain increased health from my stat, but some portions of this will be used when I cast, should I invest more into health? I already have some defensive options with my vitality items, I might not need it.
Ok, I’m forgoing investing into so much defense, I could compensate with more power, or go for sub stats that most people can’t afford. Given my build, I’d like some other sub-stats, I think the usual power margin will work for me.
When you fight a Vitality user, there isn’t a “general standard” for their build, that freedom made it fun in PVP; you can’t immediately guess what type of build a person has with Vitaliry. You see a Sfist Warlord coming at you, you already know they’re running size on that. You see a Sfist Jugg, maybe they went less into defense and power to get that extra size, you might be wrong and they build “normally”.
Stats are ''useless'' in PvE
All these previous statements ignored PVE and the general player; imagine a new person going through the storyline, most people don’t take time to gather resources/gear, because that messes with the pacing. A lot of people get stuck in places (like Elius and Calvus) because while they level, they don’t get anything new besides more ways to deal damage. It’s not like cooldowns are that much of a problem so realistically, the player gets nothing but a couple bits of energy and the minor health increase per level. yes, they’ll increase in skill tiers over time, but that’s just adding even more damage alongside its other applications; usually NPC fights aren’t lost on the player not dealing damage, most often being a failure to dodge their perfect aim, if damage was an issue, then NPC’s wouldn’t be coded to negate 50% of that damage for half of their existence whenever they feel like it.
Aside from fighting NPC’s, it might give players a reason to try other builds and stat configurations: if a person feels ok with their damage, but don’t feel like they’re surviving for long enough, they might invest into more Vitality or change their gear so it gives them more defense and tone their power down. Leaving a person with more desire to explore and change what they have, it could get people to be creative between their stat-builds and gear; again, most builds have to focus so hard on the general 100+ attack and 600+ defense that gimmicks like 300+ Agility can’t function. If a Vitality build has extra defense what’s stopping somebody from building 200 Regen and resistance for fun?
Arc 2 - Debugging Vitalities Problems
Yeah, I’m saying all of this, but we need solutions for Vitalities noticeably unbalanced state. If everything stayed the same as it is now, and Vitality got extra skills, people would start praying for Pulsar Mage to come back instead. I’ve got some solutions to the most glaring issues:
Arc 2 Capsule
Stat changes
Remove the damage reduction on stat increase, this just makes it bad for people pre-awakening to hybrid. Instead, Vitality awakenings get stat bonuses (like warriors), and one of those bonuses is a minor damage reduction. Spirit imbues could also reframe from adding base damage so that they don’t have too much power.
For example
A vitality builds (hybrids in particular; as for oracle, just ensure Spirit Relics don’t deal so much damage) awakening; spirit imbue, ~8% damage reduction (outside of blocking and using abilities), ~0.8x Multiplier on non-spirit weapons. This way, its viable pre-awakening, and post awakening players will remain balanced.
Awakening changes
Vitality doesn’t persist on awakening. AO is heavily focused on the players stat build and their gear stats. If you’re investing into a stat but don’t put in enough to awaken, then you’re much weaker than you should be. The same is true for Vitality, regardless of what in gives on stat increase.Other Options
HP is still too broken?
I also understand that Vitality builds are scaling HP, very fast right now, and for the sake of Vetex not being bombarded by every PvPer, it’s HP increase could go down by a bit, maybe from 4 to 2 currently, at 280 Vitality, you’d have 1120 extra HP, which is a lot, again considering they’re built in a way that lets them ignore defense, all of that could be put into a build like this:
And yeah, I’m not going to deny that 200+ power and size while still having more than acceptable health is ungodly absurd when any other class running that would be considered a glass cannon.
That’s why I also think that the previously planned life steal would also be good because you wouldn’t be able to run that utter nightmare. Even if the vampirism is weird, some form of Regen might be better than actual HP for balancing.
If Vitality does give regen or life steal, I think it should still consume HP to use abilities, and still deal less damage than most other builds; of course adjusted measures will be needed in that situation, for example both would need to retain more damage and lose some drawback, but it’d be a lot less work compared to HP bonuses.
For example
That gear set i showcased earlier would still be more viable for an Oracle, but would still leave themselves vulnerable if they cant aim. If they keep missing, they’ll have to either wait for their health to regenerate, or be forced to get even lower HP to try and recover, all while still dealing with enemy assault.
Charging Mechanic does?
When Vitality builds charge, they could be given increased regeneration, maybe ~20% extra regen while charging. Because of my previous change, no other build will get this effect post-awakening, and for hybrids, it could be a slightly weaker ~10% regen.Arc 3 - Other Builds
I think this also leaves room for other stats to do the same, why leave Vitality alone in this? I’ve got some ideas, but these are slightly less thought-out when compared to my Vitality ideas:
Strength Stat
Strength could use stamina instead of energy on all moves, upgrading strength increases stamina by a bit. Of course strength wouldn’t upgrade energy after this.
And now, strength builds could calculate the viability of Agility in their builds, they know they’ll be able to outlast a person whose running, but if they miss too many of their moves or exhaust their stamina, they’ll have to slow-down or risk taking stamina damage, building agility will help them move faster and save stamina, but will cost them other stats.
Strength builds charging could make stamina regenerate faster.
This doesn’t have as many innate issues as Vitality, Agility isn’t a main-stat like Defense, so it takes more effort to build. While the stamina increase only ensures that duration wise, a strength build will eventually get close. But others could still build agility and outrun a strength build; like how Regen vitality will be tankier, but a 100-0 combo or ability will still finish them.
Weapons Stat
Weapons could use a mix of both stamina and energy, skills that move the player use stamina, skills that don’t use energy. Weapons builds already focus on Adapting and being versatile, so for each stat increase, they’ll conserve resources, meaning they’ll use less stamina/energy/health (not damage resistance, just if they use Drawback/Vitality, they’ll use slightly less).
With this Weapons builds might consider using more drawback items, and will know that although they won’t out-contest a build in their playstyle, they will still have the resources to keep pace with them.
When a weapons build charges, they’ll gain small amounts of Stamina, Energy, and increased regen, less than Oracle/Mage/Zerker, or their hybrids, but enough ti utilize their moves.
like strength, this isn’t as inherently broken as Vitality. Any weapons build will still require some effort that can be mitigated; in this instance, no hybrid or Warrior will have the mains builds strength at optimal play, but be capable of using more “weak” skills to contest them.
for instance, Warlord vs Zerker: Warlord might have some increased stamina, and will save some extra energy on fstyle abilities, but they have weaker AND less of a zerkers moves. They might only be able to use Selino, but a zerker will have every other scroll + ult arts. same for Conj or Knight VS Mage and Oracle.
Magic Stat
As for Mage, It stays mostly the same, increasing energy on level-up. Mainly because I want one stat-build to remain simple, and feel that mage, being the epicenter of the game (most people will see “Arcane” and assume magic, on top of this it’s the first thing you’re brought to when creating a character), should be that.
Some simplicity isn’t bad, and if every other class does something outside of magic, then it’ll be unique by not having to consider any stats because of thier build.
And I say simple as it’s the only thing that won’t influence how the players stat-build will influence their gear stats because there is not “energy capacity” stat.
this is also because there isn’t anything I could give to magic that makes sense, and energy regen is a gem-stat… but ignore this.
Overall. I think Vitality is currently in a bad state, and it will take effort to fix. But I don’t it’s not because vitality was a bad idea. People love freedom and Uniqueness, and people who’ve been playing Vitality usually were going for it because they felt they were going to be different from other builds because of their build and not whatever gear they have. I think taking that away would be a huge L.
Is there even anything in the game that takes a set amount of stamina or energy, though? To me it’s always felt like the cost of everything scaled directly with how much you get while levelling up.
I’m pretty certain that is how that works
pretty much; i just assumed they aren’t too difficult to move, just take it from energy and slap it onto stamina; I don’t even think we know the energy formula for any move.