How closely intertwined PvE and PvP are? (From a PvE demon perspective)

Game Discussion
1

To be honest I never get the “PvE vs PvP” argument. I hate PvP sweaters ruining my PvE experience as much as the next guy but I’ll be damned if I min-maxed a build just to farm dark sealed chests forever.

That was just my biased take. Now I’ll take a more professional approach to it.

PvE vs PvP

I.PvE from a designer’s viewpoint

  1. What defined as PvE?
    I’ll keep it short: everything that doesn’t involve hostile interactions between players. This involves not only gear farming, Dark Sea expeditions, fishing, etc., but also mildly competitive activities like island capturing, renown grinding from NPCs, and (arguably?) improving player statistics.

    All of the aforementioned functions serve to make the overall gameplay experience better, both in PvE and PvP. But there’s a limit to it. One can only get as strong as the game allows them to. Once they’re done with min-maxing, what is there to do? The Dark Sea honeymoon phase is over; exotic scrolls have become a common currency amongst traders. You could say that they can start new files, try out new builds, take a new approach to the game, try out different magics, fighting styles, weapons combinations. But when does it stop? When will it all feel the same? You can’t eat the same loaf of bread forever.

  2. PvE players
    Without a shadow of a doubt, PvE players definitely make up the majority of the playerbase. Naturally, they should be favoured when planning contents for the game. So far, vetex has outstandingly managed to keep PvE players happy. There were a few hiccups here and there, but overall PvE is well thought out on paper.

    There are many types of PvE players: ( definitions I pulled out of my ass)

  • Truest PvErs : The demons of PvE demons, they need no introduction

  • PvE demons : There’s no concrete information regarding how to tell one apart from others. Probably one with astounding hours of playtime but abysmally low player kills or someone who runs at the first sign of hostility.

  • Casual/Helpless/Fodder : The most common of them all, idk what else to say the names already speak for themselves

  • Herbivore : Mostly PvE but won’t hesitate to retaliate when being provoked.

  • Omnivore : They strike a harmony between PvE and PvP

    No matter how different one plays the game, the end goal is to max out their gear potential. What then? Farm Calvus? Fishing for more sunkens? Trading? Helping new players? Those can be done with minimal effort put into min-maxing, everything can be solved with power and defense. Having maxed-out gear is cool and all but if one is not making the most out of their effort, maybe they should just play the game casually. At that point, your opinion won’t have the same weight in comparison to that of the hardcores.

II.The can of worms that is PvP

  1. What exactly drives people to PvP
    Before we go any further, I ask of you to please keep a neutral lens on this topic. Games are meant to provide challenges and suitable rewards for the player’s effort, even point-and-click visual novel games. Once you do something, you expect positive results, and what could be more dopamine-inducing than completing a set-out goal that came with challenges.

    Here’s a quote that I like:
    “ Games almost always produce perceptible results and have clear, predictable achievement and reward systems, which can act as a path to fulfilment. The context of a game often provides a much more consistent system of reward, progression, and success, than many other contexts that people experience in their daily lives.”
    ~ Source

  2. Why PvP is hated by PvE and PvP players
    PvPers find fun in killing/dueling others just as PvE players love exploring the world and progressing. Problem is one gets their fun at the expense of the other. Arcane Odyssey/World of Magic/Arcane Adventures was never built explicitly for PvE otherwise there would have been a PvP toggle from the start. The one-sided arguments of PvErs and the taunts from PvPers only exacerbate the dissonance. Either side can’t deny the other their fun while maintaining theirs else it would be bad game design.

    Even then, PvP players hate other PvP players. I have had a few cases of my friend making it on the LB just to be ganked in 1v3 non-stop to the point they quit AO. PvP in and of itself is a competitive environment where sweaters satisfy their egos by comparing each other’s renown down to the last digit. Toxicity breeds toxicity, violence breeds violence.

  3. Should PvE players learn PvP?
    Absolutely. PvE and PvP combat experiences are combat experiences nonetheless. One can rant about PvP as much as they like, it’s still a core mechanic of the game. Getting jumped by a PvP player is out of your control so it’s natural to run ( just add a system similar to Fallout 76 but the first few surprise attacks deal reduced damage until retaliation, jumping solved ez) but armed with basic-level PvP experience means you have a decent chance of fighting back.

    One may say that wiping renown is an effective strategy to avoid PvP. Well sad to say it doesn’t exempt you from toxic behaviors. PvE players already have the base knowledge of combat, why not improve on it and learn to defend ourselves? You can’t expect Vetex and testers to solve this problem simply because they’re not playing the same game as you. It falls to you to defend yourself should running proves to be a futile attempt.

    Following up on II.1, entertainment comes from both PvE and PvP. While PvP players get to play both PvP and PvE to their will, PvE-only players will forever be victims of casual abuse. It’s best to both PvE and PvP to get the full intended experience. Choose your opponents wisely ( stay away from stun sailor) and it’s actually really fun. Learning to adapt to my opponent’s playstyle and enact punishments well enough is already a huge ego boost to a fragile PvE fodder like me.

    As stated before, combat is a core mechanic of the game. You only gain from learning how to PvP. Think of it as a form of enjoyment, a way to test your stupid ass 237 speed light warlock. PvE and PvP all come down to fun in the end. A relative concept like PvP is only as bad as you thought it would be. Seeking out friendly duels is a good place to start; you don’t have to start world PvP if you don’t want to. Do not let the bad side of the community deter you from fully enjoying this … Arcane Odyssey.

Tl;dr PvE players should learn basic PvP to fully enjoy the game. It’s fun please try it Fodder Union rise up bye.

7 Likes
2

i just hate how every class haves a sideways t-jump, that makes me to think that people werent crying that bers had that cancerous mobility but they were crying that they didnt had that cancerous mobility

3

The addition of dodge reflex certainly steepened the learning curve for beginners but imo it’s better than just aiming attacks at where your opponent will land or mobility being exclusively limited to fighting styles and weapons.

4

i respect ur take but i dont have some nice words for reflexes

reflexes dont add anything to the skill, u still predict and aim where the oponent is, even more now, i saw a lot of dumb stuff, missed vindicators, people forgetting the range of their self explosion, a berserker missed 90% of his shots, he only spammed shot, heck warrior were missing their tps, how do u miss ur tp when im breathing down ur neck, usually that forced people to try to parry and block and think about their next move, but now, u can do any mistake and get out without any dmg dealt to you bc of reflexes, i would rather fight a 1.13 bers than letting every class to have the mobility of a 1.13 bers that doesnt know he can aim upwards

honestly i would just make one of these options when ur pvping:

have a longer cooldown than being able to do it once u touch the ground

make the dash significantly shorter, allowing to dodge but not enough to get u out from a bad play

disable it, straight up disable it, make it only a pve feature and exploration future

(also off-topic but for the love of god take the ability to turn around when using selino away and make surge dmg reduction very small or take it away, the only way to punish that is to grab them)

5

reflex dodge pvp is fun as hell tho

1 Like
6

ngl at this point most of the time i have fun when i beat people with a spear, i will never understand how people were crying to nerf bers mobility (and it was well deserve) and now they all are happy that every class is a walmart 1.13 bers, honestly i was hyped for reflexes but my god do they make pvping a pain in the ass, atleast the floor doesnt need to worry about getting dirty bc nobody stays on it for more than 10 seconds

1 Like
7

Floor is especially clean with people wiping it with bers

8

With the combination of magic/strength jumps, reflexes, and high agility. Pvp has begun to look more like your typical shonen anime fight.

2 Likes
9

I still would love to see, at least as a though experiment, AO with no non-consental PvP. Like only PvP on Munera and requested duels.

Oh yeah, and the “cone” for Fighting Styles was incredibly dumb. Even when I’m in-range and aiming properly, it feels like my attacks just have a 50% chance to fail. Willing to bet ping or lag can prevent the cone form being placed. This garbage should have never been added.

2 Likes
10

elysium when vetex decides to open it for everyone:

(pls so much potential awsted)

11

I dislike it personally because the game is laggy as fuck and even if it wasn’t this system demands way too much of my time to learn. I hear people talking about investing 300+ hours into getting the basics of PvP down like that’s normal.
Worse yet, if you aren’t good at it, it feels awful to play.
People can say this game’s PvP is fast as much as they want but I’ve never played in a combat system that feels this slow and clunky before.

I know it “eventually” gets fast as you become good at it, but 300 hours on munera to learn PvP would make me quit AO and never come back from burnout.
Jumping players and bounty hunting feels awful to do because I know how much I hate that shit.

6 Likes
12

This is nowhere near true. Idk if it’s a me thing but I played a few reflexively demanding games before; some even require quick decision-making skill like League, DOTA. Already familiarized with fast-paced combat I find it’s not too difficult to adapt to AO combat system. It took me 5 matches against my warrior friend (may thanks MrUnknown_Smith you’re a real one putting up with this freshie bs) to know that I should anticipate opponent trajectory, like when they will touch the ground or will they airstall to dodge my moves, few more and I learned to block and parry even tp moves thanks to prior experience of block-parry-dodge against NPCs. Overall I’d say it only took like 50 matches to familiarize yourself with basic PvP.

It’s fine if you prefer sticking to PvE alone but considering Calvus was such a beginner nightmare I’d reckon some real combat experience will benefit you in the long run in both PvE and PvP.

Also, I play AO on a 2021 Mac at 30 fps average, yours couldn’t be that bad.

2 Likes
13

Try 2018 computer.

14

because computers looked like this in 2018
main-qimg-8a09aa1eb52785d5231636b88ad7a0be-lq

15

Well if I get anywhere near mount orthys I get a whole 5 FPS

The game sometimes decides to freeze when I open my inventory.
It occasionally takes multiple attempts to even join the game.
Need I go on?

Every other game on this platform runs fine.

2 Likes
16

my condolences.
Hope you get a better PC soon, can’t imagine going into the dark sea if Orthys already screw over your fps that much.

17

no way ppl take that long to learn the basics of pvp
it can really just be simplified to dash attack dash attack dash attack dash attack and blocking inbetween

18

what do you mean, the dark sea runs absolutely fine.
not ok enough for any kind of PvP but well enough to go through the dark sea.

mount orthys is just a laggy hellhole for absolutely no discernable reason.

19

That’s strange since Orthyx felt normal to me, while after I spent like 30 minutes in the dark sea I had to leave the server upon returning since my Mac performance got worse after it.

20

Frames near orthys drop when specifically near the titan cavern, don’t know why.