imagine that a class is bugged with u, the meta for 1 class is AoE and ur ok with only one class, yet u still get nerfed
the bteam fr gonna see a substat that can be used alongside other stats and that it costs u to make a whole build around it to barely reach 50%, at this point vetex should get new bteam members and fire the old one, they doing like a few good changes and the rest are trash
literally our balance team members
Put plainly, Atk speed has a higher skill ceiling than Size, along with a lower skill effectiveness floor. That is to say—it’s harder to use initially, but it scales better with the individual player’s skill at the game.
Basically, size is, ironically, easier to balance for skill. It doesn’t do anything the player couldn’t already do with good aim (most of the time).
Both, in my humble opinion, should not have been added to AO. Again, there’s a reason most other games don’t let you mess with framedata or hitboxes. If speed only affected projectile speed, and if size didn’t let you go to extreme island-spanning attacks, I think we’d be fine. But alas, nay. Instead we have the most difficult mechanic to balance and scale possible.
honestly yea remove size it’d solve so many issues 
THE PREDICTIONS ABOUT ATT SPEED BEING AT 5% EFFICIENCY BY THE 5TH SEA WERE REAL !!!
fuck off forum its a complete sentence
Attack speed affecting endlag is why they keep nerfing it, it’s literally the better stat
why not nerf endlag efficiency specifically instead of cucking the whole stat
Does meta even matter anymore? With the removal of positive rep fighting, the amount of pvp in the game has decreased by like 90%, this change is pointless
Attack speed is dead billions must embrace attack size and agility
nah man, size beats atk speed, if ur a walking sphere of dmg its impossible to miss so ur always guarantee dmg if u dont mindlessly spam, go near ur opponent and use ur AoE move
with atk speed ur still easily punishable by endlag, ive fought people that run a atk speed build and im still very rusty, yet i had no problems with the endlag despite having mostly the same substats
Me when I put on my level 200 brisk Sunken Warrior chestplate with 2 max attack speed gems, which gives 140 attack speed, and i hover over the stat to see:
+1% attack speed
bteam watching as the weap customization benefits the size meta and size still being extremely good as they nerf a balance stat:
u know i forgot to add, they do this bc “its not worth the time to give atk speed a new formula” instead of balancing it (while i would still disagree with any nerf), they just want to kill it
Bteam when a projectile is moving faster than a snail on the ground:
another update another attack speed gut
Hear me out is the b team the biggest fans of attack size and the biggest haters of attack speed? (Theory)
It is probably safe to say that balance team can be trusted to do what they think is good for the game. Wether this is actually good for the game is unknown- on one hand, some pvp centric players vehemently insists that said change is good, while others think its horrible.
The crux of the problem lies in the fact that balance team are mostly all high level pvpers, who devote hundreds of hours to the game. Therein is the problem - the changes they make are bound to be tuned towards benefitting them, they are humans after all, and so have thejr own biases.
Take the attack speed guttings, at high level players may easily punish endlag with 20% 400 damage shadow blasts, but the average player will no be able to do so. So the balance changes end up being beneficial (mostly) only to professional pvpers. Wether balance team recongises this fault of theirs is unknown, but from my experience most people there are so bigotted that they flat out refuse to free their minds from the narrow confines of a pvp players views.
Just my 2 cents
tbf its a pretty fucky wucky stat. unlike attack size or agility, the effectiveness of attack speed can either be slightly or massively bolstered by the players aim. Pair it with agility and they can have some pretty oppressive zoning capability.
from my experience, i have a much easier time beating the snot out of attack size abusers than i do attack speed abusers
Here’s a bit of commentary I wrote regarding attack speed and attack size:
Let me put an Attack Speed meta into perspective:
- The elements of risk and positioning are heavily reduced due to reduced startup and increased projectile speed
- The element mitigated the least is aim, and this leaves aim being the only aspect of combat that will actually make you be able to win reliably.
As @DeltaSquad said, high Attack Speed not only makes aim a bit easier (because your projectiles travel faster), but it makes it drastically more important since you have more opportunities to dish out attacks without any real consequence. This makes going from a skill floor to the skill ceiling way too easy (since you only have to master merely one aspect of combat, aiming) if it is meta.
This doesn’t even get into the performance-related issues exacerbating Attack Speed issues, which makes it even more frustrating to fight against.
Now, a size meta:
- The element of aim is heavily reduced due to attacks having more reach overall
- The element mitigated the least is punishability (risk) and positioning, as size builds normally don’t have fast attacks and can easily be countered with relatively straightforward reads. Their playstyles are often predictable and punishable.
Although I would say that both stats are problematic in excess without the proper drawbacks (i.e. having a low amount of other stats), I believe that Attack Speed’s current efficiency is not healthy for any build, and it is currently enough to basically be a PvP requirement for the amount of value it gives as a stat.
Ideally, I’d want the formula to be changed to have more diminishing returns rather than nerfing efficiency again, but it is something that we’ll have to revisit when there is more time to thoroughly address it. Low invest Attack Speed is decently balanced right now (where it’s actually 50% efficiency), but medium and high invest Attack Speed are pretty problematic, thus the need for the new formula.
I see your points, and while yes, it can be hard to hit a fast target while they are attacking, you can always use near-instant attacks such as beam, shot, dagger throw, and piercing shot to hit them relatively easily.
The nerf to attack speed wouldn’t be so bad (even though I think it shouldn’t have happened) if attack size had similar punishments. Right now it feels as if there have been little to 0 nerfs on size at all, nothing to combat size magma mage and iron leg warlocks. Please don’t tell me that there is nothing wrong with the 200 size earth conjurer that you run that does 300-400 damage per attack, and has moves the size of munera.
We definitely do want to address size stacking specifically, but we are trying to find ways for vetex to do that in the simplest way possible.
There was a proposal for affinity-based attack size scaling with a formula, but that wasn’t the most intuitive approach, so I’m seeing if we can make size affinities additive with Attack Size scaling so that size stacking will be significantly less effective. This would also allow us to slightly rebuff Attack Size efficiency where it is weak (e.g. small size affinities) without making it overpowered on high base sizes.
