A (rather surprisingly) small list of changes to Dragons

[BiologLOL]

With the update being out for a few days, most of the AO playerbase, including myself, have experienced fighting the Dragons across many levels of the Dark Sea. So, how bad was it?

Surprisingly, the dragons themselves are great! With the previous records, we really did not expect that. Almost every problem the dragons have isn’t their fault. So, yeah, many thanks to our Developers, you cooked. The dragons are actual raid bosses, difficult, but beatable. The devs are keen to patch the cheese strats that emerge. Much better than the Omen.

Therefore, this suggestion will be short, there is very little to add.

Mend the dragons’ cracks. The cliffs of all dragons have large chasms in them, left from the poor part connection. Falling into them multiple times during the fight is annoying, and they shouldn’t be there in the first place.

Make the pillar with which to climb the cliffs easier to spot. When I first found the dragon cliffs, I didn’t even know that pillar existed. Mainly because, I used Spirit Flight. I am certain, that whoever doesn’t have Flight will stumble across the pillar eventually, when they go searching for the way up. Still, making their job a little easier is appreciated. Maybe, add (purely decorative) cracks of magma onto it? Or crystals? Anything that glows. Or just make more pillars.

Add a small window of stun immunity. Dragons, especially young, can sometimes chain melee attacks, which stunlocks players. About 15 seconds would be enough.

Allow putting dragon-obtained items into the gem slot of the jewelcrafting table, so the players could change their colour by adding 5 dragon scales as reagents. Self-explanatory. Grinding for specific colours takes way too much time. This will also add some use to the scales. For those who unlocked the second reagent slot from the Profession, that won’t work - only one scale colour. And, you can’t use the scales of the same colour as the armour piece/weapon, obviously.

Patch the dragons’ blindness. You need to be directly in front of the dragon for it to notice you, and, due to the bug of spawning in the ground, you rarely can damage it (LoS requirement is totally fine on its own when used by the dragons btw) before it notices you and stands up. Invisibility just removes all ways to initiate the fight entirely. Make them more observant, like Atlanteans.

Replace percentage-based damage with consistent damage, but add a large amount of Armour Piercing to the dragons. Team Immersion strikes again, huh? For the same reason animals shouldn’t have percentage-based damage, dragons shouldn’t either. Players who invest in Defense should be rewarded for sacrificing other stats. Armour piercing server a similar, but much less offensive purpose to percentage-based damage. Just, don’t overtune the numbers, alright? Keep it reasonable.

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Speaking of Team Immersion, this section is about the awful features that many people would have expected to appear in this suggestion, but aren’t. Whatever is written here is not related to the suggestion, and can be ignored completely - nothing here is relevant, it is here just to calm down the crowd.

Spawn Rates. I know there is barely any Dark Sea left in the Dark Sea now - dragon cliffs are everywhere, and normal islands are scarce. This will be looked at with more detail in a future suggestion.

Armour Damage. Yes, this is a mechanic tied to dragons specifically (and certain Sea Monsters too). Still, tweaks to it are a separate thing, and I have already covered it in my Team Immersion’s suggestion anyway.

Line of Sight requirement. Despite causing so many problems when applied to other enemies, the relatively flat arena of dragons and their large hitbox make this mechanic unnoticeable, and it only starts affecting you, when you use cheese strats, therefore serving its intended purpose.

Getting stuck under broken terrain. Again, not the dragons’ fault, but the terrain damage mechanic’s own issue.

Water Poisoning during the fight. Do I need to say anything about this one? Do I really?

The various attacks of the dragons are causing lags. Blame Roblox on this one, not the devs.

[BlueFighter15]

@BiologLOL

Armour Damage. Yes, this is a mechanic tied to dragons specifically (and certain Sea Monsters too). Still, tweaks to it are a separate thing, and I have already covered it in my Team Immersion’s suggestion anyway.

I think dragons should apply a small but stacking armor piercing debuff on you that slowly drains your stats as you take damage instead of leaving you statless out of nowhere.

[BiologLOL]

@BiologLOL

Replace percentage-based damage with consistent damage, but add a large amount of Armour Piercing to the dragons.

You mean, the more you get hit, the more stats you lose? Eh, nah, too harsh. Just giving them a lot of AP is enough

[Zormego]

@BiologLOL

Add a small window of stun immunity. Dragons, especially young, can sometimes chain melee attacks, which stunlocks players. About 15 seconds would be enough.

This is a boar nerf in disguise (not like that’s a bad thing, fuck them boars)

[BiologLOL]

@Zormego

This is a boar nerf in disguise

No, it isn’t. This stun immunity only applies to the dragons. As for the animals, address the Team Immersion’s suggestion

[Zormego]

I was trying to be funny : (

[Scandin]

Immediate disclaimer: It is 1 in the morning at the time of writing.

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@BiologLOL

Mend the dragons’ cracks. The cliffs of all dragons have large chasms in them, left from the poor part connection. Falling into them multiple times during the fight is annoying, and they shouldn’t be there in the first place.

Yes, there’s no reason this shouldn’t be added.

@BiologLOL

Make the pillar with which to climb the cliffs easier to spot. When I first found the dragon cliffs, I didn’t even know that pillar existed. Mainly because, I used Spirit Flight. I am certain, that whoever doesn’t have Flight will stumble across the pillar eventually, when they go searching for the way up. Still, making their job a little easier is appreciated. Maybe, add (purely decorative) cracks of magma onto it? Or crystals? Anything that glows. Or just make more pillars.

That exists?
It has personally been incredibly confusing at times figuring for how to get up to dragons, therefore this is a must, no objections.

@BiologLOL

Add a small window of stun immunity. Dragons, especially young, can sometimes chain melee attacks, which stunlocks players. About 15 seconds would be enough.

Agreed, though possibly a lower time to prevent some kind of bizarre cheesing.

@BiologLOL

Allow putting dragon-obtained items into the gem slot of the jewelcrafting table, so the players could change their colour by adding 5 dragon scales as reagents. Self-explanatory. Grinding for specific colours takes way too much time. This will also add some use to the scales. For those who unlocked the second reagent slot from the Profession, that won’t work - only one scale colour. And, you can’t use the scales of the same colour as the armour piece/weapon, obviously.

I’ve been playing Diablo 4 for a decent while now, granted this has no relation given the lack of context, but it in reality does;

In Diablo 4, you can use the cube^[1] to “transmutate” items into others, the cost comes that you have to use 3 to get 1 new version of said item, sacrificing said two others.

I’d recommend instead of 5, use the rule of 3, basically copying the Diablo cube, It doesn’t matter if it’s copying another game, we both know Vetex would copy if he ever thought about it.

@BiologLOL

Patch the dragons’ blindness. You need to be directly in front of the dragon for it to notice you, and, due to the bug of spawning in the ground, you rarely can damage it (LoS requirement is totally fine on its own when used by the dragons btw) before it notices you and stands up. Invisibility just removes all ways to initiate the fight entirely. Make them more observant, like Atlanteans.

I’ve at times been able to go up to it and it not registering me whatsoever, but then sometimes where the dragon can notice me despite not looking towards my direction, vice versa for not noticing me whilst not facing my direction.

It feels half-baked to the point the question is asked; “Has this been tested?”, and the answer is not clear.

@BiologLOL

Replace percentage-based damage with consistent damage, but add a large amount of Armour Piercing to the dragons. Team Immersion strikes again, huh? For the same reason animals shouldn’t have percentage-based damage, dragons shouldn’t either. Players who invest in Defense should be rewarded for sacrificing other stats. Armour piercing server a similar, but much less offensive purpose to percentage-based damage. Just, don’t overtune the numbers, alright? Keep it reasonable.

U’huh, yes.

Percentage damage ruins the… immersion… of becoming stronger in the world, it ALWAYS take X% of damage away from you, even if you are a god among men, you would still take the same damage.

@BlueFighter15

I think dragons should apply a small but stacking armor piercing debuff on you that slowly drains your stats as you take damage instead of leaving you statless out of nowhere.

Regarding this, I do see it as a possibility, but it should be limited to 5 stack, by not punishing the player by taking their health away, but by taking their power away for a temporary amount of time.

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@BiologLOL

Spawn Rates. I know there is barely any Dark Sea left in the Dark Sea now - dragon cliffs are everywhere, and normal islands are scarce. This will be looked at with more detail in a future suggestion.

I spent 15 minutes in the Dark Sea, I saw 3 different Dragon islands, which I would understand that if this was done so new players can experience the dragons by finding them easily, however it looks to be over-tuned and not the case.

@BiologLOL

Line of Sight requirement. Despite causing so many problems when applied to other enemies, the relatively flat arena of dragons and their large hitbox make this mechanic unnoticeable, and it only starts affecting you, when you use cheese strats, therefore serving its intended purpose.

It’s a useless mechanic that could be removed without much hurt, therefore I agree.

@BiologLOL

Water Poisoning during the fight. Do I need to say anything about this one? Do I really?

sigh
No, no you do not, we get the message.

@BiologLOL

The various attacks of the dragons are causing lags. Blame Roblox on this one, not the devs.

I’m blaming both, so both are at a fault.
Roblox is horrible at rendering particles.
Developers are horrible at keeping the particle count low.

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1. Unique crafting station mostly used in end-game. ↩︎

[BiologLOL]

@Scandin

That exists?

Yeah, I had the same thought in mind when a guy I randomly picked up in the Dark Sea showed me that pillar.

@Scandin

to prevent some kind of bizarre cheesing

I don’t see any way this could invent cheese strats. Dragons often take multiple seconds to decide on their next attack, so I needed a short period of time that would still include several melee swings from the dragon.

@Scandin

I’d recommend instead of 5, use the rule of 3, basically copying the Diablo cube

Nope. We’re using 5 for consistency with the already existing game mechanics of AO, why bother making it consistent with a whole other game, that isn’t even Roblox?

@Scandin

It’s a useless mechanic that could be removed without much hurt

Uh, no, it still has niche uses in which it prevents cheese, like the bosses. Would be pretty boring if we could aim Surge at the wall of Whitesummit and farm Merlot that way. The tower enemies, however, will do without the mechanic just fine.

@Scandin

Developers are horrible at keeping the particle count low.

Hey, they recently addressed it personally, and claimed that they are trying to patch the lag, but Roblox is in the way.

[DeltaHelios]

Good changes overall

[AlarGuardian]

grr that was MY idea

5 for reason

[mari]

@BiologLOL

Patch the dragons’ blindness. You need to be directly in front of the dragon for it to notice you, and, due to the bug of spawning in the ground, you rarely can damage it (LoS requirement is totally fine on its own when used by the dragons btw) before it notices you and stands up. Invisibility just removes all ways to initiate the fight entirely. Make them more observant, like Atlanteans.

kind of ironic considering dnd dragon (probably the most famous depiction of dragon imo) have blindsight (aka they can just see/know shits around them up to a certain distance even without sight)

[Scandin]

@BiologLOL

I don’t see any way this could invent cheese strats. Dragons often take multiple seconds to decide on their next attack, so I needed a short period of time that would still include several melee swings from the dragon.

As said; I wrote it at 1 in the morning
I was just thinking of the bizarre ways people have found cheeses, like hiding at a specific area in Ormolu’s cave, and now when they threw fucking potions of all things on Dragons.

@BiologLOL

Nope. We’re using 5 for consistency with the already existing game mechanics of AO, why bother making it consistent with a whole other game, that isn’t even Roblox?

My mindset behind writing 3 instead of 5 was because Vetex is already famously inspired by Elden Ring, as seen by the dragonblood ritual being heavily inspired by a similar ritual involving dragons.

Though, I guess 5 could work fine.

@BiologLOL

Uh, no, it still has niche uses in which it prevents cheese, like the bosses. Would be pretty boring if we could aim Surge at the wall of Whitesummit and farm Merlot that way. The tower enemies, however, will do without the mechanic just fine.

I was referring to LoS on dragons, I should’ve clarified that, sorry.

@BiologLOL

Hey, they recently addressed it personally, and claimed that they are trying to patch the lag, but Roblox is in the way.

Fully aware, and I believe they are not being truthful.
They are continuing utilizing deprecated functionality alongside unoptimized networking and lack of StreamingEnabled, there are way more things they can do, they are just not taking drastic measures to ensure performance over functionality.

A list of things I theorize they are able to do, but aren’t due to the fact it requires rewrite:

1. Compressing Data via Buffers: Requires rewriting RemoteEvent and DataStore logic to accept buffers instead of arbitrary variablers.
2. Utilizing StreamingEnabled instead of a custom unloader: Requires a lot of functionality to be rewritten to adhere that it might not exist in the world, and hence would need to be dynamically observed.
3. Attributes instead of ValueObjects: These are like variables on objects instead of values by themselves as ValueObjects are. This would require a minimal rewrite by just referring to attributes instead of ValueObject.
   • To further elaborate on why Attributes are more effecient than ValueObjects, refer to this from the New Studio Beta: Attributes DevForum announcement.
     
     

[BiologLOL]

@Scandin

A list of things I theorize they are able to do, but aren’t due to the fact it requires rewrite:

I don’t know how to code, so all there words are foreign to me

[Scandin]

@BiologLOL

I don’t know how to code, so all there words are foreign to me

Ah, understandable, let me try to tell them in layman’s terms;

Data is usually not compressed as you’d want to work with it in its most recognizable form, which sacrifies size for readability, and hence why buffers would assist majorly in compression of said data.

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StreamingEnabled is Roblox’s version of a “Render Distance”, far away thinks aren’t loaded, close are.

If we look into the advanced usage of StreamingEnabled, we’ll see that it now also has possibility of auto-generating an LoD of any mesh or model.

In case LoD is a foreign concept too, here is a visualization of a bunny model and its lower steps of LoD, each time it reduces the complexity based on distance, so it’ll look kind of the same but at a way lower cost.

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Value Objects are as the name says; objects that store a specific value, be it Instance^[1], Number, Color and so on, these are instances in themselves and hence would need to be located to access the value.

Attributes are as the common definition is; some kind of value of an object, like a “quality of a character in a story” would be an attribute, as it is a part of the character, whereas Value Objects are values by themselves.

The Benefit of Attributes over Value Objects is the less memory due to a value not requiring an entirely different instance to keep track of, way easier creation and deletion due to the same earlier reasoning, and overall more up-to-date support.

The only issue with Attributes are that they cannot store a reference to another Instance… yet^[2], like if you wanted to store the door frame of a door model, you would have to use a ValueObject to reference it.

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Ask away if you do have questions relating to these technical notes.

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1. Every object is an instance, be it your character or the damn sky, think of it as a template. ↩︎

2. Ever since the Procedural Models beta came out, there’s been a hint of beihng able to use references to other Instances in an attribute. ↩︎

[hanmbi]

@BiologLOL

Mend the dragons’ cracks.

i read this out of context and at first i thought you wanted to mend the ass of dragons to prevent them from excreting

@BiologLOL

Still, making their job a little easier is appreciated.

can confirm, i couldnt see shit in i4 because it was so dark even with clearsight 3

@BiologLOL

Allow putting dragon-obtained items into the gem slot of the jewelcrafting table, so the players could change their colour by adding 5 dragon scales as reagents.

yes please

[Sanguiris]

I think another thing that could be improved would be to fix Movestacking on dragons, maybe give them some kind of cooldown between moves, or just cooldowns on moves in general so they cannot use the same thing several times in a row? Also yeah, terrain issues (please make it so grass is not a solid object, it makes no sense). Other than that, I think the fights are great, although I wish they looked into the interacting behaviors of Dragon pathfinding, movestacking, terrain destruction and vfx of every move, because all these things happening together at once constantly and interacting with eachother is probably what’s dropping the frames.

[BiologLOL]

@hanmbi

i read this out of context

I totally did not name that section in the way that people would read it out of context.

[BiologLOL]

@Sanguiris

Movestacking on dragons

Movestaking? I never seen a dragon do that. Spamming the same move several times in a row? Yeah, that happened, but mostly with young dragons’ stomp-leap attack, which I addressed by giving players 15 seconds of stun immunity after getting stunned by a dragon

[DubiousLittleTyp0]

Can you also make it so hecate can spawn on dragon nests

They’re basically islands too and it would help make hecate hunting easier for those who aren’t her #1 customer (me) or are just really unlucky

[BiologLOL]

It can’t spawn there? Thought it could. Perhaps just the devs’ oversight. I will eventually get to making a Dark Sea-wide suggestion, and this will be mentioned