Skimmed through the whole thing recently, don’t see a reason why it should be locked seeing as the discussion hasn’t devolved into shameless name-calling. It’s actually still a discussion and both sides are still respecting each others points(to an extent). People are actually having an argument instead of seeing who can type the loudest.
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cqc classes lose distance on crash and zoning classes lose what? not much except leap reflex
maybe i havent been here long enough but does it really get that bad
SOMEONE ADDRESS THIS ONG
Meh. I feel like agility can pretty problematic but the same can be said for just about every other substat in the game. The argument about it bad for PvP, especially with hunters and gankers just running away when they’re low, seems more like design problems with open world PvP, bounty hunting, and gaining renown overall rather than just agility.
Then there’s how agility is already deeply rooted in the game already. It’ll likely be difficult to completely remove it as multiple items and enchantment scrolls would have to be changed, leaving people feeling cheated out of their time they’ve invested to get their builds. Breathing gems being fixed got some backlash, there’d probably be even more backlash if a substat that’d existed since WoM days and has been continuously built on for a while now suddenly vanishes.
Also, I haven’t really heard agility being a major problem this update. It feels pretty sluggish with around 180 of it compared to when Mistral was released.
Exactly
Yeah but that’s much more fair than having to change your whole gearset to keep up with one guy
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Archrono previously stated that most activities wouldn’t really be affected by agility, except for Dark Seaing. Players can already efficiently complete dark sea runs without agility by using the siren method. Of course, it would make the whole process faster, but you don’t really need it.
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The problem, according to SourOnion, is that “Agility makes it too easy for people who start fights to run away from them”. I do agree that removing agility is probably the most radical change anyone could ever come up with to solve that problem, so if you have better ideas feel free to shoot them.
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Not really. The problem isn’t the meta, the problem is that people who participate in PVP have access to a PVP off switch, which then makes PVP interactions more drawn out. The way I see it, there are bounty hunters who abuse the advantages that come along with agility, and there are people who use agility to speed up tedious tasks like doing a Dark Sea run. If someone starts a fight with you, runs away when they get low, comes back with a couple potions and full health, and repeats the process with every failure- it will quickly become annoying(regardless of whatever game you’re playing).
The thing is, with agility, that process becomes a whole lot easier compared to if you didn’t have agility. Your dashes become a whole lot longer- so if someone wanted to finish you off with beams, they’d have no time to charge up and gain range. Your T jumps become instant, and you can use reflex in the air to further avoid taking damage in your escape.
It’s the difference between starting something and avoiding something. Picking a fight, running, and trying again as if your opponent is a boss NPC is not even close to the same as running away from someone who just tried to attack you.
Either way, there are definitely better ways to solve the problem without just destroying agility entirey. Maybe make it so that if your health is below 20% your dash distance is heavily reduced. Anything but removing agility as a whole would work.
TL;DR
- “countless” is a bit of a stretch
- yeah, there definitely are. the problem isn’t that agility exists and people run away with it, the problem is that people use it to avoid PVP interactions THEY started
- the problem isn’t the meta, the problem is that gankers can just decide they don’t want to fight you anymore and dash to the next island within two seconds.
Compare agility in PVP to having a PVP toggle that doesn’t account for combat tags. You’re in a 1v1, you almost win, and your enemy turns PVP off at the last second. Then that same enemy runs up on you about ten minutes later with full health, gels, potions, maybe even a couple buddies. It’s just
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I’ve got to agree with both sides here, and I think that a compromise of some sort would be the best action in finding a good solution for both political parties.
It would be best to either use the cone, or to disable agility in player combat only. Both of these would remove the need for a full on removal (if implemented right) and would prevent the need to edit dozens of armor sets.
I’m not against removing agility but the backlash from doing so, and the work that would need to put it in is simply too much.
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i want to add a small modification to removing the effect of agility in combat, this shouldn’t apply to agility’s effect on mobility moves like crash and stuff since those aren’t really good for running at all imo
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Im pretty sure that just implementing the cone check would pretty much solve this whole issue to a good degree
this is wrong, travel time is massively increased (but dw ik EVERYONE loves dashing across an island for 3 mins), fighting styles lose mobility, and again dark sea is made more difficult
i did make a hypothetical solution
V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V
so because you gain speed if you are facing fs will have and easier time cqcing and mages wont be able to backdash as easily
the problem isnt the meta, i didnt say it was. I just said by removing agility you are just taking away one piece of these gankers tools. they’ll just use agility pots and slowness gels
it’d be interesting if agility had some fix deepwoken-style where, below 50% hp or some other threshold, you start to lose agility effectiveness based off your hp. That way, people can explore, but you can also get pinned down if you start getting got, if you get sniped by a move or two you can get pinned down while low, and gankers can’t just run away from a fight if they’re losing
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Obviously things like land travel would take longer. But if you’re going for efficiency, you really aren’t spending all that much time going in and out of a Sirens Rock, agility or no. Like I said, you don’t need agility, it’s nice to have it but things would still go on as they would have whether it’s there or not.
Fighting styles losing mobility is kind of an “ehh” for me, since I occassionally run 20 agility thermo-plasma. Keep in mind, it isn’t just strength losing mobility- it’d be every single class.
Everyone moves at the same base speed when there is no agility stat, and so therefore fighting styles would have pretty much the same mobility they had as before. No more mosquito mages sniping you from the clouds, no more speed demon warriors. It’s just techniques. Also, agility doesn’t increase attack speed(pointing that out just incase), so you still need attack speed for your travel time to increase along with your range.
I dunno about this one. An agility bonus given to the person chasing might not even make up for the gap in agility between fighters. I’m not sure if you realize just how fast agility can make a player. The difference between 0 agility and 150+ agility is like night and day.
Even if the agility bonus DOES make up for the difference- the gap would still increase within a second.
That take on the cone check might work for someone running high amounts of size, since they wouldn’t need to worry about aiming at the enemy- just getting close enough to land a hit. But the point still stands- if the buff wears off, the gap simply increase within the blink of an eye.
Sure, but I don’t think that’s a problem. When a ganker runs agility, they don’t need to consider any variables like “what if they have high-tier potions?” or “should I use a gel before or after the gank?”. They only need to know that when they get low, they can just run away and nobody can stop them. Let’s say Player 1 is the target of a ganker, and Player 2 is a ganker running 200 agility. Player 1 almost beats Player 2, but Player 2 runs away and comes back with gels, a full meal, and health pots. The agility gap between player 1 and player 2 would be huge enough for player 2 to pretty much negate any kind of downside from starting a fight with player 1. It’d be like someone retrying a difficult boss- “dying” over and over again until they finally win and hitting the “ez”.
If agility were not a factor here, player 1 would still have a chance to defeat player 2 whether player 2 chooses to pop an agility pot or not. The thing about potions is that any class can use them, and so if player 2 is running agility III while player 1 responds with agility V, the fight would end as it would have. The only difference being player 2 was not as prepared as player 1 was.
Even if player 2 were carrying max tier pots, in a situation where both players have the same quality pots- it’d just equalize and there’d be no increase on either side(unless someone combines agility with slowness).
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ignore the edits- main points aren’t being changed
bold of you to assume people are going into the dark sea solely for siren rocks, they could be trying to get essence or hecate
yeah, running thermo plasma the agility probably doesnt matter to you but it makes a big difference for us plebian basic users
strength relies on agility the most because it can’t deal consistent damage at range. I explained this earlier but i really do not expect anyone to read 400 messages so I’ll explain it again.
mages get hurt less by the removal of agility because it has a lower efficiency on dodge reflex when compared to crash and rushdown.
example:
crash range when agility is removed might go from 25m(hypothetical) to 10m
but dodge reflex range would for from 20m to 10m
yeah the goal of my change was to make it if the difference is high enough then the agility player will still be able to escape. if some invests 200 more into the agility stat than you, you should expect to catch them. I feel thats a fair trade off.
speed users will be able to cast spells from farther away which will freeze them and cause them to land farther away from the runner and therefore gaining a higher percentage of aglity
:doubt:
this isn’t correct, its literally a 112 boost, player 1 wont be able to catch player 2 without agl
same for agility! only thing different is that it’s a stat…
50+ agl bonus
this is a very common tactic employed by gankers even now
Fair enough 
The point of strength is to get up close, so you can’t really expect long range moves to have a great effect. In a world where there is no agility stat, most strength to magic build interactions would probably go about the same as 1.12 PVPs did. The distance between you and your enemy will never increase by a lot as long as you use your crashes accurately, and you will always be able to close the distance on any mage since their blasts and beams keep them in one place (leaving them open to a crash, or a dash).
With agility, a mage can create a constant range between them and the berserker. Dash backwards, T-jump, beam, dash backwards, T-jump, beam, and the process continues. The berserker, likely running less agility, can’t do anything about it because they just aren’t using agility. If both the berserker and the mage have no agility at all, the mage can’t just continue to zone- they will eventually have to fight back or run from the fight completely (stalemate), otherwise risk casting a spell and getting hit with a crash.
shouldn’t(?)
That doesn’t really change anything. The ganker can still run from the fight that they started, leaving the problem unsolved.
I think what you mean to say is, “Speed players can still capitalize off the agility buff by attacking the opponent from a range. As the gap between them and the opponent increases, the speed user can regain the speed buff and the cycle continues.”
I mean, that’s fair and all. Maybe it’d take some skill, and it might be possible in a perfect scenario outside of any towns with obstructions. But if a ganker is running into a town and uses houses as a cover, you’re only increasing the gap between you and the ganker.
It’s all just too troublesome. I think it’d be better if we used electricboi and WarmWaters idea, where your agility is propotionate to your health. After a certain percentage of health, your agility buffs take a huge decrease. That way, it retains the “PVP toggle” aspect and the exploration aspect of agility, while still making it so that someone can’t run from a fight after getting low.
…That’s the point. Player 1 still has a chance to catch player 2 because, instead of it being a stat difference, it’s a resource difference.
And that’s a big difference. Incorporating an entirely new stat into your build vs grinding some reagents for just incase situations are completely different.
also, dodge reflex and agility are the same regardless of class. A mages dodge reflex isn’t any better than a warriors or a berseker.
don’t give me credit for that, it’s his idea and it’s a good one
People have suggested stuff like this before and the balance team struck it down unfortunately
Like I said earlier they won’t take any solution that inhibits the player’s ability to fight back nor any which changes the way the player behaves in and out of combat (meta didn’t respond to archrono so I went and got some quotes myself)
