It really truly is never a dull moment you with you lot huh . .
Anywho, the orignal topic I was replying in got closed, and OP even annon’d themselves . . (Will stick to their wish of being called annon’d even despite their large reputation in the AO community.)
Amongst other things that I wont say, that I breifly saw went down . . I wont even ask.
I’ll keep things much more brief than originally intended, and was wrapping up with my thoughts on the original topic at hand before it got closed.
If this topic gets closed soon after posting, I wont complain - or be surprised for that matter-, but I do wish to at least get my thoughts out, since I’ve come this far in writing it.
Up to you if you wish to have a read, I wont force you.
Discussion portion to avoid wall of text
First things first, the topic/question at hand (aka the title).
The PvE side of the community seems to victimize themselves at a glance, and by extension partly the PvP side of the community too if you think about it.
Is primarily due to the long standing situation surrounding both the PvE, and PvP Worlds. Alongside as Flucet put it here:
There are a lot of changes that primarily throughout most of balance changing history, involve trying to tackle and handle PvP. With not too many/very little that focus on PvE which of course influences how the two worlds interact and see another.
With a good majority of the changes trying to help out PvP, causing PvE to get caught in the cross-fire, even when unintended, seemingly time and time again.
Which I’ll extrapolate later, but for now keep in mind its not completely on the fault of the Balance Team given how the game is structured.
Not helped by the fact that issues seen back then, still persist to this very day. Which I’ll get into later after tackling the topic at hand.
Still with me?
I hope so.
Continuing on, part one of the topic at hand -
The main issue here - in which the greater context/history is smth I could really get into but wont for the sake of my time and will be brief later - is because of the nature of how it was implemented ftmp.
PvE players aren’t looking at the running away aspect really here, they’re primarily looking at the diving spot aspect.
As well as looking at it holistically with the continued aforementioned status quo of things so-to-speak. Pro-PvP changes over pro-PvE changes, in which the PvP issues trying to be rectified have bled into PvE once more.
Thrice even, when you account for Agility’s removal, and then Regen’s nerf. And Maybe a tinge of DoTs if you run DoT Magics but that’s largely a lessor complaint I feel.
PvE players and people in general are pretty considerate when it comes to their time. (cough cough Hecate Essence.)
So its no big surprise that when the change impacts their time spent/ convenience. Among other changes came together in one package, it’ll cause PvE players to voice their complaints once more.
Its really hard to avoid being tagged in combat and being slowed down when it comes to diving spots. Be it the sharks that spawn at Abyssal diving spots - and rarely regular ones at times - or the hazardous Sea Urchin that will tag you if you manage to run into it.
And Diving Spots although neat, are not something done for scenic purposes . . Its a largely get in, get out process. Not only in the account of air time, but also what you want to grind for in an efficient manner.
I could extrapolate this topic even further, but again I’m considering my time, and don’t wan to spend more time than I already have writing.
Part two and the main focus of the OP-
This is true and quite frankly should be a viable option, but you also must account for the reasons why people at the same time wont defend themselves, and choose to run away instead.
It really isn’t and hasn’t been encouraged to fight back, outside of the dismissive sentiment of trying to get PvE players to fight back regardless of the existing circumstances.
Which allows me to start slightly getting into the greater context/history side of things.
Its all the same song and dance once again here on the forums, and by extension the greater AO Community.
There’s been past discussions, polls, and brainstorming topics that try to bring out solutions surrounding PvE and PvP.
In which said topics shown below will display the history at hand more than me simply explaining it here would:
Discussions, Polls, and Brainstorming Topics in question.
Topics timeline:
January 2023:
March 2023:
June 2024:
September 2024:
Second Week of Discussion 3: PvP and PvE
And recently Hecate Essence for a good while:
All of this to say, this is simply another drum beat hammering down again, which inevitably will have another drum beat come down once more.
So long as the situation does not change/improve.
And so far ever since the listed topics above, it hasn’t exactly done so, or at the very bare minimum hasn’t been done so in equity. .
To get back on track on the topic/reason of why people, particularly PvE players, don’t fight back can explained for this simple reason:
By the nature of being a PvE player - and human psychology in general -, we’re not going to stick around battles and fights we’re not prepared for, want to participate in, or even ones we know we’re not going to win.
(Especially if the PvE Player has something to lose that they don’t feel like losing.)
This logic is the logic applied to NPCs, and especially strong NPCs. After all if I don’t want to fight an NPC, and I am not forced to do so, you just simply play into simple game mechanics to avoid it and run away.
The NPC will lose agro, and eventually refresh back to where they originally spawned at.
Thus we can conclude, most NPCs can’t really force you to fight them unless:
- You’re really pushed into a corner with something to lose and better to defeat them than try running away.
Or
- The NPC has been explicitly designed, and intended to make you fight them. Think of notoriety from the Grand Navy ftmp for example.
Otherwise you can generally rather easily, run away from an NPC fight, be it stationary Fame/Bounty NPCs, bosses, Ship NPCs, etc.
However the situation and dynamics change slightly when encountering a player.
The same principles is applied to the situation at hand, but the difference of the situation becomes apparent from the jump. The contrast between another player vs an NPC is obviously profoundly apparent and largely different.
The simple rules and mechanics used to avoid and run away NPCs largely quickly falls apart in the context of players immediately practically.
I don’t think I need explain the intricacies of ganking, and all that so I wont.
But moving onwards with the constrast, you cannot nearly as easily run away from a fight from a player vs an NPC via a multitude of factors. But its still possible nonetheless.
Really dragging on and getting tired of writing, so I’ll move on despite this section being a bit rather haphazard. .
I hope the point somewhat gets made across here.
##Closing remarks -
The topic got closed when I was writing these thoughts/perspective of mine for part 2. So I’ll only mention one final thing about the original topic I wanted to get to:
I largely view this part of a misconception of why the PvE side of things is complaining about changes related to PvP.
PvE players for the most part unless its a rather universal/an all across the board change regardless of the perspective of PvP or PvE. (I.e a magic itself being changed such as light getting its self synergy and dmg buff back then.)
Don’t really care or outright welcome PvP changes for the better, because it can partially tie into PvE. Or when PvE players do PvP - because some of us do engage in it as a pass time, willingly or not at times . . - they get to have the benefit of balance PvP.
PvE players so long as it doesn’t interfere with their PvE activities or fighting NPCs, don’t particularly care.
Which gets into the realm/discussion about separate combat tags for PvP and PvE. If the Swim Speed and or future Agility jewel effects didn’t get disabled in what is considered PvE combat, but rather PvP combat.
Then the complaints surrounding the issues of both worlds would be minimized by a good amount instantly. There are still issues left posed:
-
- Namely the loss of charts upon death being the large reason why ppl will run away. At least in my case, which even then extends to when you die to an NPC and lose your charts being annoying as well.
(I mean cmon, its been ages since this issue was mentioned and nothing has been done about it or really said as far as I can remember.)
-
- Sealeds coming in at a very close second with charts, namely Dark Sealeds as Bronze Sealeds have the ability of being redeemed rather frequently, while in the Dark Sea its everything comes home at once.
Though this has diminished as too big of an issue as of late, especially since the Noble Phantasm spook has largely waned off ftmp.
(Gosh that topic has left lasting echos for the PvP and PvE scene to this day.)
-
- Clan Building providing PvE Benefits despite seemingly wanting to be a PvP thing. Which has gone into the PvP Clans vs PvE Clans discussion in the past and largely still remains to this day.
You can’t be surprised when PvE players see:
And not want to take part in that, especially if other benefits could be helpful and useful. Especially if they’re playing with their other PvE grinding friends.
Infamy is just the funny number that goes up for PvE players, but it still has the ability to reduce costs of buildings and how much you can hold in the treasury.
Meaning PvE players aren’t going to be too keen on losing additional benefits surrounding that there as well. Which can help make other benefits they wanted to go after (Fishing bonus) easier to obtain too.
There’s more to discuss, which can also tie in professions, but that’s not here right now. But neither is the bonus PvE benefits from clans - of which are dubious on how much benefit they’ll provide, but a bonus is a bonus - outside of Reagent pots that exist.
Really said that I would consider my time but look at me right now-
Anywho, my writing fatigue is starting to catch up to me and my brain is turning to mush.
Tl;dr will be done in a separate drop down, for both this section, and honestly entire original topic.
Tl;dr, and with a bit more cohesion cause my writing brain is not wanting to write about this topic anymore.
A good portion of the original post/topic is largely standing off a misconception based on current observation it seems. Paired with a bit of not knowing and or forgetting the long standing history of PvE and PvP Worlds.
PvE players generally don’t care about the PvP world changing its issues for the better. In a similar or same way that PvP players don’t generally care about the PvE world changings its issues.
But PvE players primarily are having PvP solutions to issues bleed into their world causing issues/inconveniences there. All the while not getting into the issues that PvE faces. At least not very visibly.
Both are rather intertwined with another from the get go, and in areas in where they shouldn’t be.
So its not going to be a surprise if both worlds may butt heads on occasion, when it comes to changes that both worlds stand on.
Solve past issues from the PvE side, all the while separating it through methods to that of the PvE and PvP combat tags. While still simultaneously fixing up the PvP side.
And the situation between both worlds can generally stop bickering with another, or even enjoy the other’s company. Its a matter of dynamics and solving foundational issues of both worlds together.
You can’t implement changes to benefit either or both worlds if the foundation they both share are faulty and or shaky. (Which extends to the real world too.)
Its a intertwined systemic issue, paired with how the vibe and perception of the community is. Its not exactly a secret here that the relationship from Vetex and the others is, Not The Greatest™, especially with respect to each other.
But with respect of this, this ultimately comes down to how Vetex goes about developing the game too. PvP and PvE worlds are going to continue to bicker and clash with another, if Vetex doesn’t also come in and listen to the proposed changes to rectify the issue.
Lest this song and dance continue for nigh perpetually, until Vetex eventually comes around at some point to hit the nail on overworld PvP. Most likely when overworld PvP no longer becomes a thing because of proper PvE replayability.
Anyways . . My brain is telling me stop writing here, and spend the writing NRG related to my personal artistic projects.
That’s all I had to say ftmp, said I was gonna keep it brief but couldn’t didn’t fully . .
That’s all from me, I may pop in in between the time between full release for non AO reasons, but we’ll see.
In which I doubt any of you really noticed my lack of talking, outside of a few people mayhaps. In which I don't blame you since I didn't talk too often to begin with.Or for a long time for that matter . .
Paired with not interacting outside of the forums, i.e specifically FP which seems to be a thing still ig.
Anyways no more yapping, I got other interests and things to grind into. My brain is also partial mush atm.
Tis all for now.
Remember to hydrate, stay safe given the state of worldly affairs, and most importantly.
Try to behave yourselves.
I have been watching the background and will continue doing so.
